Social Justice in SF&F - Page 8

DrNefario · 09-04-2015, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

What is cliched or lazy about it?

It is a term used to describe a concept.

The purpose of language is to communicate. I fail to see why you object to that.

"SJW" and "PC" are lazy dismissive shorthand for straw men, it seems to me.

DiapDealer · 09-04-2015, 03:09 PM

Fortunately, the people who were originally looking for a catchy, derogatory name for people they disagreed with, were stupid (or short-sighted) enough to pick something that many people--if they stopped to think on it a bit--would be proud to be called.

I mean, what's the opposite? A Social Injustice Proponent? A Kicker of Sand on the Ninety-Eight Pound Weakling?

"You SJW!"
"I know I am, but what are you?"

Want to stop the derogatory usage of terms like SJW overnight? Thank them when they call you something that freakin' cool.

eschwartz · 09-04-2015, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

"SJW" and "PC" are lazy dismissive shorthand for straw men, it seems to me.

Wrong.

SJW and PC when used as lazy dismissive shorthand for straw men, are lazy dismissive shorthand for straw men.

Much like my overblown "Nazi" example above.

dickloraine · 09-04-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Counterexample: "murder". Very judgmental word there, laden with emotional buttons.

I guarantee, given sufficient motivation, you could find judgmentalism, from someone's perspective, about most words.

Words describe ideas. Ideas are used to label things and people. Usually we try to avoid falsely labeling people, but attempting to go wholly without labels is... idiotic. Two labels I can slap on you right here and now: you're "German" and you "read books".
Pretty much anything is bound to be offensive to someone out there -- it's a big world.

I *could* react in a highly illogical, devoid-of-facts manner to those labels, and associate your location with Nazis and progress from there to calling you an Anti-Semite (I am a religious Jew, BTW)... but that would be downright retarded, not least because I have no logical backing.

It is nevertheless true that both Nazis and Anti-Semites exist... however much of a label those words may be...

Well, that is why I suggested people not be so quick to "just dismiss" people for utilizing a term, but rather to consider their argument/statement/whatever, and determine whether or not they are indeed being dismissive.

No one here has yet put forth an even slightly convincing reason why not.

Instead, you have engaged in the slippery slope fallacy, by suggesting that anyone who utilizes a term you don't like to hear will automatically fail to provide any sort of reasoning.

That is very flawed logic you use there. Not all labels are equal. And "german" and "nazi" are very different labels. I would be in no way offended, if you call me german (okay, that depends on the tone in which you are saying it) but I would be offended if you call me a nazi. Don't you see the difference? Black is a label. As in your way would be the bad n... word. Would you say they are the same, since they refer to the same population?

dickloraine · 09-04-2015, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Fortunately, the people who were originally looking for a catchy, derogatory name for people they disagreed with, were stupid (or short-sighted) enough to pick something that many people--if they stopped to think on it a bit--would be proud to be called.

I mean, what's the opposite? A Social Injustice Proponent? A Kicker of Sand on the Ninety-Eight Pound Weakling?

"You SJW!"
"I know I am, but what are you?"

Want to stop the derogatory usage of terms like SJW overnight? Thank them when they call you something that freakin' cool.

That happens often, a group just enarmors the terms used against them. It happened in black comunities, gay communities and even in art, just look at impressionism

covingtoncat73 · 09-04-2015, 06:19 PM

I read the article. As much as SJWs have come to really annoy me (am I am pretty Liberal), I thought it was a prettty good article and she has a point.

I had the same thoughts about Dragonflight. I hated F'Lar so much! He slapped Lessa and, as the article mentions, raped her. I always preferred the Dragonsinger books, anyway, as far as McCaffrey goes.

I liked the first few Xanth (Spell for Chameleon was mentioned in the article) books as a kid. They were fun silliness but I grew out of them.

Maybe my memory of Forever War is fuzzy but I thought everyone was eager to orgy because of their new bodies. How did I skip that it was forced on the women?

Like the author of the article, I loved Doomsday Book. I should re-read it.

I will always love Lord of the Rings and A Wizard of Earthsea, even though there are not many female characters in those books.

MikeB1972 · 09-04-2015, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalym

Because "Social Justice Warrior" is no different from "Liberal" or "Conservative". It's a label with no concrete meaning. If I were to say that it would be nice to see more strong women characters in science fiction, or maybe a gay couple in a story with other couples in it, would you say that I'm a SJW?

What if I were to tell you that a lot of the books I read come from Baen, and Orson Scott Card and Heinlein are two of my favorite authors? Would I still be considered a SJW?

Shari

Nope, if however you said that all stories should contain a gay character I might be tempted to

Or wrote a post insisting on the end to the binary default for gender (Jo Walton wrote this one on tor.com)

MikeB1972 · 09-04-2015, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I enjoyed Starship Troopers. It was Stranger in a Strange Land that I really choked on when I was reading all the Hugo winners. I'd put it in my bottom three.

Stranger is probably my favourite Heinlein book

DiapDealer · 09-04-2015, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Stranger is probably my favourite Heinlein book

Same here.
Of course, I preferred all his late-middle/late-late stuff over his early works.
I would've thought his '73 nomination Time Enough for Love would've weirded out more people than Stranger ever would have.

jgaiser · 09-04-2015, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

"You SJW!"
"I know I am, but what are you?"

Want to stop the derogatory usage of terms like SJW overnight? Thank them when they call you something that freakin' cool.

I prefer tree-hugging bleeding heart, but Social Justice Warrior works too. One who fights for social justice.

Mostly it's a lazy way of putting down someone with views left of yours. These days, I just ignore everything after the first use of the phrase.

jgaiser · 09-04-2015, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Stranger is probably my favourite Heinlein book

Ain't tastes great! Stranger is when I gave up on Heinlein. One of the few books through the years that I couldn't finish.

darryl · 09-04-2015, 08:08 PM

Labels, archetypes, stereotypes. All can be useful devices, but of course are very easily abused. The term SJW is useful. Like all labels, it lacks precision. It is not a term of art. But what it does allow is, for instance, for someone to post here to make a particular point or points without having to include an almost certainly lengthy definition. Yes, it does carry a pejorative taint but I think many posters here use it chiefly for convenience (or out of laziness if you must). And let's face it, all sides of the Hugo debate use labels, many more offensive and inaccurate than SJW. Am I the only one who finds it a little ironic that SJW has been singled out when labels like racist, misogynist, sexist, homophobe and stereotypes like old straight white men are being bandied around. And other collective smears like haters of diversity and change. Social Justice itself is hardly a term of art.

SJW is here to stay, like it or not. Wear it with pride if you like, though like the other terms I have quoted here, it is not usually used as praise. Only for denoting a class of people (without real precision) or in a pejorative sense or both.

GoSharks · 09-04-2015, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

...*snip*...
Maybe my memory of Forever War is fuzzy but I thought everyone was eager to orgy because of their new bodies. How did I skip that it was forced on the women?
...*snip*...

You're thinking of Old Man's War by Scalzi....

dickloraine · 09-04-2015, 08:29 PM

Forever war had the funny idea to combat over-population by promoting homosexuality (in one of the time periods).

covingtoncat73 · 09-04-2015, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoSharks

You're thinking of Old Man's War by Scalzi....

Oh sure. Thanks.

09-04-2015, 03:09 PM	#107
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,591 Karma: 204624552 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Fortunately, the people who were originally looking for a catchy, derogatory name for people they disagreed with, were stupid (or short-sighted) enough to pick something that many people--if they stopped to think on it a bit--would be proud to be called. I mean, what's the opposite? A Social Injustice Proponent? A Kicker of Sand on the Ninety-Eight Pound Weakling? "You SJW!" "I know I am, but what are you?" Want to stop the derogatory usage of terms like SJW overnight? Thank them when they call you something that freakin' cool. Last edited by DiapDealer; 09-04-2015 at 03:17 PM.

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09-04-2015, 06:19 PM	#111
covingtoncat73 Wizard Posts: 2,745 Karma: 83407757 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Lenovo Duet Chromebook, Moto e	I read the article. As much as SJWs have come to really annoy me (am I am pretty Liberal), I thought it was a prettty good article and she has a point. I had the same thoughts about Dragonflight. I hated F'Lar so much! He slapped Lessa and, as the article mentions, raped her. I always preferred the Dragonsinger books, anyway, as far as McCaffrey goes. I liked the first few Xanth (Spell for Chameleon was mentioned in the article) books as a kid. They were fun silliness but I grew out of them. Maybe my memory of Forever War is fuzzy but I thought everyone was eager to orgy because of their new bodies. How did I skip that it was forced on the women? Like the author of the article, I loved Doomsday Book. I should re-read it. I will always love Lord of the Rings and A Wizard of Earthsea, even though there are not many female characters in those books.

09-04-2015, 08:08 PM	#117
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	Labels, archetypes, stereotypes. All can be useful devices, but of course are very easily abused. The term SJW is useful. Like all labels, it lacks precision. It is not a term of art. But what it does allow is, for instance, for someone to post here to make a particular point or points without having to include an almost certainly lengthy definition. Yes, it does carry a pejorative taint but I think many posters here use it chiefly for convenience (or out of laziness if you must). And let's face it, all sides of the Hugo debate use labels, many more offensive and inaccurate than SJW. Am I the only one who finds it a little ironic that SJW has been singled out when labels like racist, misogynist, sexist, homophobe and stereotypes like old straight white men are being bandied around. And other collective smears like haters of diversity and change. Social Justice itself is hardly a term of art. SJW is here to stay, like it or not. Wear it with pride if you like, though like the other terms I have quoted here, it is not usually used as praise. Only for denoting a class of people (without real precision) or in a pejorative sense or both.

09-04-2015, 08:29 PM	#119
dickloraine Guru Posts: 631 Karma: 7544528 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Berlin Device: PRS 350, Kobo Aura	Forever war had the funny idea to combat over-population by promoting homosexuality (in one of the time periods).