Archive.org - Page 5

tompe · 08-26-2015, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. "archive.org" contains a great deal of pirated material. If you download a pirated book or other item, you are stealing from the copyright holder. It is your responsibility to check, just as you need to check before you download something from MR. In MR's case, not because it's pirated, but because a lot of what's in the MR library is not in the public domain in the US. The download pages at MR specifically tell you this.

The legal term is not stealing. So you are wrong.

And morally it is not stealing either.

It is a pity that your argument is incomprehensible because your misuse of the terms.

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

It is a pity that your argument is incomprehensible because your misuse of the terms.

You may be unable to comprehend my argument, Tommy, but I believe that the majority of the readers of this forum will understand exactly what I'm saying.

TimW · 08-26-2015, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

The legal term is not stealing. So you are wrong.

And morally it is not stealing either.

It is a pity that your argument is incomprehensible because your misuse of the terms.

In a civil case, the claimant would request compensatory (and likely punitive) damages for a loss suffered when the download(s) took place. While it is true that stealing is a criminal offense, "taking what doesn't belong to you" can reasonably be considered stealing, in a non-legal sense. You can't be "clapped in irons" for this sort of stealing. Well, unless you've become involved in a criminal conspiracy. That's another story.

CWatkinsNash · 08-26-2015, 11:58 AM

I feel like something needs to be explained, as some people might not realize that there are multiple aspects to archive.org, and that various posters may not all be referring to the same things.

The Internet Archive - The Archive itself, founded in 1996 with the purpose of archiving the web. In 1999, it branched out beyond this when it became the online home of the Prelinger Archives. Since then, it has grown to host many (in my opinion) interesting and culturally valuable collections, including images from NASA, propaganda materials from all sides, rare books previously only available for viewing in the research libraries that housed them, and much more.

Wayback Machine - Digital archive of the WWW. The Archive began archiving web pages in 1996, and the Wayback Machine became available in 2001.

Open Library - a digital lending library with the additional ambitious goal of building a web page for every book ever published.

Additional projects can be viewed here.

Now, to examine things a bit further: The main Archive's collections include public collections, to which anyone can contribute. These are the collections which are troublesome in terms of potential copyright violations.

Problematic items do sometimes end up in the tightly curated collections, but that is generally the result of incomplete records and limited access to original source material. Several foreign films, for example, have been in and out a few times due to lack of clarity on whether or not they were "GATTed". As I mentioned in a previous post, there are many mid-century American films that, despite having registrations and renewals on file, fell into public domain immediately due to being released without the appropriate copyright notice required at that time.

There is also a lot of original content on the Archive, released into PD or with a CC license by the creators. Some items are there by express permission. This is more common in the audio collections.

It's almost as though the Archive exists as two realms - one in which users / contributors have an "anything goes" attitude, and the other where they spend days trying to ascertain the status of a single item. Many collection forums have endless listings of users attempting to research copyright status. The collections I spend most of my time in are unlikely to end up with problematic material unless it's placed there by accident. If I was actually seeking popular, recent items, there are much easier ways than trolling the Archive.

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 12:08 PM

Thank you - that's a very useful summary. "Archive.org" is a wonderful resource, and one that I use constantly to access long out-of-print books. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that people shouldn't use it; simply that caution is needed when doing so, especially if a search returns "modern" items.

Catlady · 08-26-2015, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you. "archive.org" contains a great deal of pirated material. If you download a pirated book or other item, you are stealing from the copyright holder. It is your responsibility to check, just as you need to check before you download something from MR. In MR's case, not because it's pirated, but because a lot of what's in the MR library is not in the public domain in the US. The download pages at MR specifically tell you this.

Not my job. If you see so much "pirated material" at archive.org, take it up with the site.

When you see, say, a short story collection that notes that each story is public domain or was "reprinted by permission," do you attempt to verify that the publisher indeed has the right to reprint each story, or do you assume that it has? Why not make the same assumption with a legitimate website disseminating material?

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

When you see, say, a short story collection that notes that each story is public domain or was "reprinted by permission," do you attempt to verify that the publisher indeed has the right to reprint each story, or do you assume that it has? Why not make the same assumption with a legitimate website disseminating material?

Because, unfortunately, although "archive.org" has many admirable qualities, when it comes to that particular aspect of it, I personally would not consider it to be an entirely "legitimate website", for the reasons that I've already stated (ie it allows uncurated uploads).

You may choose to ignore my caution, and of course that's your decision to make, but if someone reads this thread and takes a second look at the material that a search at "archive.org" returns as a result, this thread will have served a useful purpose.

Cinisajoy · 08-26-2015, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Thank you - that's a very useful summary. "Archive.org" is a wonderful resource, and one that I use constantly to access long out-of-print books. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that people shouldn't use it; simply that caution is needed when doing so, especially if a search returns "modern" items.

Harry, you have my complete sympathy on your work being stolen.
Now if you were in the US, since it is a civil matter you could take the pirates to court for compensation.
Note: Metallica did that to a single mom who's son was downloading all their songs from Napster. (Personally, I think the son was probably doing more than that since he and his mom were the only one they went after.)
Yes, Metallica won. I don't think the judge liked the woman's self pity defense.

Josieb1 · 08-26-2015, 12:32 PM

I was always under the impression the archive was a repository of fan fiction, sadly I was naive. I don't know about pirated books but I have seen some authors claimed that their work has been plagiarized and its on there.

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josieb1

I was always under the impression the archive was a repository of fan fiction

It's a repository of many, many things, and that may well include fan fiction. It has an awful lot of extremely useful and valuable material. When I'm searching for page scans of public domain books, it's one of the places I always look.

Catlady · 08-26-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because, unfortunately, although "archive.org" has many admirable qualities, when it comes to that particular aspect of it, I personally would not consider it to be an entirely "legitimate website", for the reasons that I've already stated (ie it allows uncurated uploads).

You may choose to ignore my caution, and of course that's your decision to make, but if someone reads this thread and takes a second look at the material that a search at "archive.org" returns as a result, this thread will have served a useful purpose.

A "second look"? Just what does that mean? Please be specific about what you think a person is supposed to do before downloading from archive.org.

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

A "second look"? Just what does that mean? Please be specific about what you think a person is supposed to do before downloading from archive.org.

No, I'm not going to waste any more of my time when you've clearly stated that it's "not your problem".

eschwartz · 08-26-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Well, prepare to be surprised because yes it does, except if it is for other than the person's private and domestic use (it specifically states that, hence my earlier post's use of "commercial") or, of course, it is not of criminal content e.g. child porn. To then distribute such material is not lawful.

I suspect that similar occurs in most countries in law

No, it does not. In most countries, downloading pirated material is not legal.

Did you just deliberately misquote someone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Well, prepare to be surprised because yes it does, except if it is for other than the person's private and domestic use (it specifically states that, hence my earlier post's use of "commercial") or, of course, it is not of criminal content e.g. child porn. To then distribute such material is not lawful.

I suspect that similar occurs in most countries in law, or in the practice of accepting reality if the law has not caught up with technology, instant worldwide communications, rapid transport around the world, etc. (the courts in most countries, including your own, would soon be completely bogged down with cases if that were not so). [...]

HarryT · 08-26-2015, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Did you just deliberately misquote someone?

I'm sorry, but you've entirely lost me.

Catlady · 08-26-2015, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I'm not going to waste any more of my time when you've clearly stated that it's "not your problem".

Oh, that's helpful. Seems like a cop-out to me.

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08-26-2015, 11:58 AM	#64
CWatkinsNash IOC Chief Archivist Posts: 3,950 Karma: 53868218 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Fruitland Park, FL, USA Device: Meebook M7, Paperwhite 2021, Fire HD 8+, Fire HD 10+, Lenovo Tab P12	I feel like something needs to be explained, as some people might not realize that there are multiple aspects to archive.org, and that various posters may not all be referring to the same things. The Internet Archive - The Archive itself, founded in 1996 with the purpose of archiving the web. In 1999, it branched out beyond this when it became the online home of the Prelinger Archives. Since then, it has grown to host many (in my opinion) interesting and culturally valuable collections, including images from NASA, propaganda materials from all sides, rare books previously only available for viewing in the research libraries that housed them, and much more. Wayback Machine - Digital archive of the WWW. The Archive began archiving web pages in 1996, and the Wayback Machine became available in 2001. Open Library - a digital lending library with the additional ambitious goal of building a web page for every book ever published. Additional projects can be viewed here. Now, to examine things a bit further: The main Archive's collections include public collections, to which anyone can contribute. These are the collections which are troublesome in terms of potential copyright violations. Problematic items do sometimes end up in the tightly curated collections, but that is generally the result of incomplete records and limited access to original source material. Several foreign films, for example, have been in and out a few times due to lack of clarity on whether or not they were "GATTed". As I mentioned in a previous post, there are many mid-century American films that, despite having registrations and renewals on file, fell into public domain immediately due to being released without the appropriate copyright notice required at that time. There is also a lot of original content on the Archive, released into PD or with a CC license by the creators. Some items are there by express permission. This is more common in the audio collections. It's almost as though the Archive exists as two realms - one in which users / contributors have an "anything goes" attitude, and the other where they spend days trying to ascertain the status of a single item. Many collection forums have endless listings of users attempting to research copyright status. The collections I spend most of my time in are unlikely to end up with problematic material unless it's placed there by accident. If I was actually seeking popular, recent items, there are much easier ways than trolling the Archive.

08-26-2015, 12:08 PM	#65
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,549 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Thank you - that's a very useful summary. "Archive.org" is a wonderful resource, and one that I use constantly to access long out-of-print books. I'm certainly not trying to suggest that people shouldn't use it; simply that caution is needed when doing so, especially if a search returns "modern" items.

08-26-2015, 12:32 PM	#69
Josieb1 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,086 Karma: 18051062 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Device: Kindle Scribe, Coloursoft, PW SE, Kindle 6, Kobo Libra 2	I was always under the impression the archive was a repository of fan fiction, sadly I was naive. I don't know about pirated books but I have seen some authors claimed that their work has been plagiarized and its on there.