Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace

[fjtorres]

From the NEW YORKER, Amazon's long-standing Empathy Training program revealed:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borow...NzQyMDk5OTYyS0

(Mind the byline.)

[theducks]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Sigh.. As much as I've been talking up Intel, this... Internet bubble burst in early 2001. My division shut down. Two months looking internally for a new job. 20 years experience. 56 years of age. Expect to be vested in the following year. Intel ended up making an offer I couldn't refuse. No hard feelings really, but damn.

I am talking 1964
Things did not change much

My dad (and father in law) worked a Lockheed, projects got cancelled and the mad scramble to place their crew, then find themselves a job was common until they retired in the 80's

This is not about Intel.
It is about the modern, Hi Tech era, Hi stress/pressure way of life

[Angst]

Originally Posted by shalym

Hmmm...All of the articles I've read hold up Google as an ideal place to work. According to the list at your link, though, the median retention rate there is 1.1--only slightly better than Amazon's. Maybe ''retention rate" isn't as indicative of working conditions as you are implying it is.

Or maybe google is just as "bad" as Amazon is?

Shari

The big difference is that 92% of Google employees would recommend their company to a friend for work, while only 62% of Amazon employees would recommend their company to a friend.

From Glassdoor.com

62% of employees would recommend that a friend work at Amazon.
82% of Apple employees would recommend the company to a friend.
92% At Google would recommend the company to a friend.
96% like Google's parent company Alphabet CEO Larry Page.
81% of Microsoft employees would want a friend to work there


source

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Angst

Intel is tied at #168 with a median employee retention rate or 4.3 years.
Amazon is tied at #465 with a median employee retention rate or 1.0 years.

I suspect Intel is a whole lot less "high pressure" than Amazon. If you are losing 50% of your workforce every year, something is fishy.

stats

I don't think you can really compare Intel to Amazon - I would think Amazon has a lot more low skill workers. Which workers are leaving quickly and how many of Amazon's workers are high skill versus low skill? Lower skilled and lower paid jobs tend to have a much higher turnover rate.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I don't think you can really compare Intel to Amazon - I would think Amazon has a lot more low skill workers. Which workers are leaving quickly and how many of Amazon's workers are high skill versus low skill? Lower skilled and lower paid jobs tend to have a much higher turnover rate.

Intel doesn't pay people to leave if they're unhappy.
Intel (and Google) were both parties to Steve Jobs "no-poaching" conspiracy to limit worker mobility and depress salaries.

For the memory-impaired:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/...e-likely-get-4

Plenty of dirty laundry all over.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Intel doesn't pay people to leave if they're unhappy.
Intel (and Google) were both parties to Steve Jobs "no-poaching" conspiracy to limit worker mobility and depress salaries.

For the memory-impaired:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/...e-likely-get-4

Plenty of dirty laundry all over.

I wasn't trying to say there wasn't dirty laundry, just that the workforces were different.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I wasn't trying to say there wasn't dirty laundry, just that the workforces were different.

I know. I was backing you up.
Seattle isn't SiliValley; different culture in the city and the companies.

[voracious71]

Nearly everything listed in that article happens in the healthcare field every day. People being driven to tears? Check. People getting crap reviews after being out on leave or sick? Check. I had a coworker whose boss expected her back to work in a week after her son died. We had a woman faint in the OR and the doctor stepped over her and continued working.Didn't bat an eye or ask if she was ok.

I really think to succeed in a managerial/administrative/executive level, you have to sell your soul to the devil.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by voracious71

Nearly everything listed in that article happens in the healthcare field every day. People being driven to tears? Check. People getting crap reviews after being out on leave or sick? Check. I had a coworker whose boss expected her back to work in a week after her son died. We had a woman faint in the OR and the doctor stepped over her and continued working.Didn't bat an eye or ask if she was ok.

I really think to succeed in a managerial/administrative/executive level, you have to sell your soul to the devil.

I'll second that.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by voracious71

Nearly everything listed in that article happens in the healthcare field every day. People being driven to tears? Check. People getting crap reviews after being out on leave or sick? Check. I had a coworker whose boss expected her back to work in a week after her son died. We had a woman faint in the OR and the doctor stepped over her and continued working. Didn't bat an eye or ask if she was ok.

Here's a Times retrospective on a outstanding novelization of some ideas in your post:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/he...ouse.html?_r=0

(Although, reading the above link again, it may give an incorrect impression that the problems exposed by the novel have mostly been corrected.)

Of course, just because multiple workplaces are toxic doesn't justify it.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

According to you and a few other people, Jeff Bezos is a psychopath (or possibly a sociopath?

After reading The Everything Store: Jeff Bezos and the Age of Amazon, I was convinced that Jeff Bezos was a good husband and father. If I'm right about that, he couldn't possibly be a psychopath or sociopath.

Amazon, for years, has been too big to be explained by a great man theory of business history. Bezos isn't just the CEO of Amazon, but has other businesses, including a space company and newspaper. I doubt he can successfully dictate the tone of most business units (some of which -- read about Zappos -- have a very different workplace reputation from the Amazon core).

Looking at Bezos's response, I take him at his word that he wants to fix some of what The New York Times documented. It seems to me likely that this article will, to some extent, improve the company.

I was a little taken aback by Bezos's repeated references to laughter in the workplace. Depending on what people are laughing about, this could just as easily be a bad sign or a good one. As an employee, I want to be rewarded for meeting mission-critical goals while being respected as a individual who has life responsibilities beyond work. How much laughter there is in my workplace has nothing to do with that.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

After reading The Everything Store: Jeff Bezos and the Age of Amazon, I was convinced that Jeff Bezos was a good husband and father. If I'm right about that, he couldn't possibly be a psychopath or sociopath.

Amazon, for years, has been too big to be explained by a great man theory of business history. Bezos isn't just the CEO of Amazon, but has other businesses, including a space company and newspaper. I doubt he can successfully dictate the tone of most business units (some of which -- read about Zappos -- have a very different workplace reputation from the Amazon core).

Looking at Bezos's response, I take him at his word that he wants to fix some of what The New York Times documented. It seems to me likely that this article will, to some extent, improve the company.

I was a little taken aback by Bezos's repeated references to laughter in the workplace. Depending on what people are laughing about, this could just as easily be a bad sign or a good one. As an employee, I want to be rewarded for meeting mission-critical goals while being respected as a individual who has life responsibilities beyond work. How much laughter there is in my workplace has nothing to do with that.

It's been my observation that upper management in large corporations are a bit like the coach in the old movie, The Program, that is to say, they don't really want to know, so no one tells them. People have an amazing ability to rationalize and justify just about anything. While I'm sure there are some psychopaths and sociopaths in corporate America, it's hardly necessary for someone to be such to act as described in the article.

I have no doubt that much of what was described in the article (and other articles about Amazon) really did happen. IMPO, the stories are too consistent to be made up by disgruntled ex-employees and it's not like this is the first such story about Amazon. That doesn't necessarily mean that the extremes are sanctioned or promoted by upper management.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

According to you and a few other people, Jeff Bezos is a psychopath (or possibly a sociopath? will people make up their minds...), and his policies encourage psychopathic warehouse workers.

What does that have to do with all the many non-warehouse workers, especially the people in management positions who aren't Mr. Bezos and who you have not demonstrated any sound reasoning for identification as psychopaths?

You might find this article enlightening: The disturbing link between psychopathy and leadership.

And this book: Snakes in Suits: When psychopaths go to work. One of the authors, Robert Hare, is probably the leading expert in the world on psychopathology.

Although I am not an expert in the subject, some of examples given in the NYTimes article would strongly suggest some of Amazon's managers are psychopathic. The complete lack of empathy displayed for subordinates, to the point of outright cruelty, is a strong indicator.

[howyoudoin]

Originally Posted by Angst

The big difference is that 92% of Google employees would recommend their company to a friend for work, while only 62% of Amazon employees would recommend their company to a friend.

From Glassdoor.com

62% of employees would recommend that a friend work at Amazon.
82% of Apple employees would recommend the company to a friend.
92% At Google would recommend the company to a friend.
96% like Google's parent company Alphabet CEO Larry Page.
81% of Microsoft employees would want a friend to work there


source

You can't compare the dissatisfaction rates for a company with a large retail and warehousing component to ones that don't have that.

[Angst]

Originally Posted by howyoudoin

You can't compare the dissatisfaction rates for a company with a large retail and warehousing component to ones that don't have that.

Why not?