Unlocking the Gates of Alexandria: DRM, Competition and Access to E-Books

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

We (the vocal enthusiasts community) do not accurately represent the mass market.

So it's not possible to say that DRM free books would lead to vastly increased book sharing.

The best I can do is look at DRM free MP3s. I don't hear about music sharing rings. I do know the RIAA goes after torrents though.

[murg]

Originally Posted by conan50

Here is the case for buying a new ebook verses pirated version:

New from publisher - you have the exact text, proper formatting, any illustrations, proper editing, and you are supporting favorite authors and encouraging their work.

Pirated - You have no idea if the text is the actual text in the book. If it is an OCR'd copy, just look at some Google Books OCR editions to see how 'great' that turned out, you have no idea if the editing is correct, in other words no guarantee of a pristine book. Add to that you must visit shady websites, subject yourself to viruses and malware.

My experience has been:

New from publisher - unproofed optical scan conversion

Pirated - proofed optical scan conversion.

There are times when I wonder why the publishers bother to scan a book to turn it into an ebook and don't just grab the better quality illegitimate ebook that's readily available.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yet I don't hear of underground e-book lending rings

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I don't hear about music sharing rings.

Perhaps something is wrong with your hearing?


Seriously though, regarding music, you may have heard about Napster, Kazaa, and others?

For ebooks, it's not quite as popular a pastime, but still, let's say I apparently hear things that you claim not to.

So it's not possible to say that DRM free books would lead to vastly increased book sharing.

Nope, no good data either way as far as I know. As I said, I was playing Devil's Advocate. I wish we had solid evidence to convince publishers otherwise.
I think one of the BPHs would need to go DRM free, and then release pre- and post- sales data to convince the others.
Smaller, genre and niche publishers like Baen and O'Riley just don't have the kind of market to make a convincing argument for something with the popularity of a Stephen King or Nora Roberts release.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by conan50

Publishers could set up a 'used' ebook exchange and take a second, third, etc., cut out of resold ebooks. Kind of astounding how unimaginative the publishing industry is, and how much useless effort they instead spend on upholding a dying business model and restraining inovation.

Why would publishers do that?

How would publishers do that?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Why would publishers do that?

• To show their relevance and ability to address the needs of a changing industry.
• To stem the tide of indie publishing by innovating and offering new options.
• To encourage sales by adding value.
• To--possibly--reduce the perceived need for DRM by creating a mechanism that offers a lower cost option for people who might otherwise pirate. (well, it's an argument at least.)
• Because their customers may demand it.

How would publishers do that?

TBD. Perhaps a system integrated with retailers ebook sales systems, perhaps a third party clearing house of some kind.
Perhaps this is a business opportunity for some entrepreneur.
I'm between gigs at the moment, maybe I should work on it.
I'm currently accepting donations to use as venture capital. See my sig.

[conan50]

Originally Posted by murg

My experience has been:

New from publisher - unproofed optical scan conversion

Pirated - proofed optical scan conversion.

There are times when I wonder why the publishers bother to scan a book to turn it into an ebook and don't just grab the better quality illegitimate ebook that's readily available.

I agree there have been some crappy ebooks put out by some publishers. I once bought a Bible ebook without a table of contents! But people complained and the publisher uploaded a new version with the TOC within a few days. You can hold the publisher accountable, but not a pirate :-)

[ApK]

Originally Posted by conan50

I agree there have been some crappy ebooks put out by some publishers. I once bought a Bible ebook without a table of contents! But people complained and the publisher uploaded a new version with the TOC within a few days. You can hold the publisher accountable, but not a pirate :-)

The Bible was originally written with a table of contents??

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by ApK

• To show their relevance and ability to address the needs of a changing industry.
• To stem the tide of indie publishing by innovating and offering new options.
• To encourage sales by adding value.
• To--possibly--reduce the perceived need for DRM by creating a mechanism that offers a lower cost option for people who might otherwise pirate. (well, it's an argument at least.)
• Because their customers may demand it.

None of your statements answer why the publishers would create a used ebook system.

TBD. Perhaps a system integrated with retailers ebook sales systems, perhaps a third party clearing house of some kind.
Perhaps this is a business opportunity for some entrepreneur.
I'm between gigs at the moment, maybe I should work on it.
I'm currently accepting donations to use as venture capital. See my sig.

In other words, an app restricted or time sensitive structure like Kindle Unlimited, Scribd, Oyster and the public library.

[darryl]

Personally I think the idea of a "used" ebook system is ridiculous. That does not mean it would be beyond software developers to implement such a system. It is simply that it is totally foreign to the very nature of an ebook. Quite as foreign as attempting to restrict sales geographically, for instance. It is about time everyone on all sides of the various relevant debates accepted what an ebook is and thought long and hard about trying to artificially make them more like print books.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

Perhaps something is wrong with your hearing?


Seriously though, regarding music, you may have heard about Napster, Kazaa, and others?

For ebooks, it's not quite as popular a pastime, but still, let's say I apparently hear things that you claim not to.

You didn't quote my second sentence: "I don't hear of underground e-book lending rings. Yet we all know about torrents and shifty websites." Those would be PirateBay, Kazaa, Napster and the rest.

If you're going to attempt to make me look dumb, at least do it fairly.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If you're going to attempt to make me look dumb, at least do it fairly.

Honestly I didn't mean to suggest dumbness at all (that would be the third monkey, and he was only there because I couldn't quickly find a cute "hear no evil" by himself.)

I only meant to suggest you might be disingenuous when you claim to not be aware of how rampant popular file sharing really is.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

I only meant to suggest you might be disingenuous when you claim to not be aware of how rampant popular file sharing really is.

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Somewhere upthread a comment was made by another poster suggesting the real problem with selling DRM free books would be casual users sharing books back and forth between a dozen friends.

I am saying that I don't think that would ever become a thing and if it does, it would pale in comparison to what is already being done even with DRM via file sharing sites and torrents.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by ApK

Nope, no good data either way as far as I know. As I said, I was playing Devil's Advocate. I wish we had solid evidence to convince publishers otherwise.
I think one of the BPHs would need to go DRM free, and then release pre- and post- sales data to convince the others.
Smaller, genre and niche publishers like Baen and O'Riley just don't have the kind of market to make a convincing argument for something with the popularity of a Stephen King or Nora Roberts release.

So Tor Macmillan isn't considered a BPH? Because they did exactly that - went DRM free and published a statement after a year stating that there was no increase in piracy.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/4/430...ee-ebooks-says

http://www.tor.com/2013/04/29/tor-bo...ne-year-later/

Shari

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Somewhere upthread a comment was made by another poster suggesting the real problem with selling DRM free books would be casual users sharing books back and forth between a dozen friends.

I am saying that I don't think that would ever become a thing and if it does, it would pale in comparison to what is already being done even with DRM via file sharing sites and torrents.

Yes, this is argued here all the time. But there are reasonable arguments on both sides, and in the absence of strong evidence either way (or a different overriding reason to drop drm) publishers can't be faulted to risking to err on the side of caution.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

Yes, this is argued here all the time. But there are reasonable arguments on both sides, and in the absence of strong evidence either way (or a different overriding reason to drop drm) publishers can't be faulted to risking to err on the side of caution.

Right, I understand that. That's why the MP3 market might be worth looking into. What impact have iTunes, Amazon and Google selling DRM free MP3s had on the torrenting of music?