Firmware Update Kindle Paperwhite Update Warning

[flandroid]

Originally Posted by dpbmobi

I spent hours last night trying to fix this, more time today demanding that Amazon downgrade my version again, and filing a complain against their underhanded tactics, to no avail.

Thanks for the morning laugh. I take it you don't generally read Terms of Use/Terms of Service?

(heh, 'demanding,' hoho, 'underhanded)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by flandroid

Thanks for the morning laugh. I take it you don't generally read Terms of Use/Terms of Service?

(heh, 'demanding,' hoho, 'underhanded)

There's no need to be impolite. It may be common knowledge here that Amazon do over-the-air firmware updates, but the OP didn't know, and for him it's obviously been an inconvenience.

[shamanNS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I have never personally had MOBI lose formatting. I shouldn't think it would happen for anything that MOBI supports.
Which is practically everything likely to show up in a novel.

Fonts will be stripped -- to me that's a plus.

Margin-right (or padding)

Also, some people don't make a difference between "(old) mobi the format" & "mobi the file extension". Use of Calibre's mobi output [but it being "combo mobi", ie contaning both KF8 and old mobi6 formatting] and extension is needed for sending KF8 formatted text to Cloud archive and/or wireless delivery.

[eschwartz]

I find it very simple there is MOBI (the format) and .mobi (the file extension) and dual-MOBI (the combo MOBI+KF8).

[dpbmobi]

The fact that I contacted Amazon gives you some idea of how desperate I was. Really, I had nothing to lose at that point. Also, I thought even one more complaint might be useful. The eternal optimist. But other posters here have been a great help. I just find an ePub reader on Kindle to be more convenient and I personally have not had such a great experience with conversion programs, but that's just me.

[flandroid]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's no need to be impolite. It may be common knowledge here that Amazon do over-the-air firmware updates, but the OP didn't know, and for him it's obviously been an inconvenience.

I don't think finding a tantrum amusing is particularly rude.

Conditions imposed on the use of a product aren't exclusive to Amazon, knowledge of them shouldn't belong solely to some enlightened minority here on the forum (they're included with the documentation!), and implying that outrage over the 'inconvenience' is justified only encourages continued ignorance. Modifications of hardware or software on consumer items almost invariably absolves the provider of said product of any responsibility for user support on that item. Heck, it often voids a warranty.

(I've jailbroken three of the four Kindles I've owned over the years, for what it's worth. I've always been aware that future software updates may negate my efforts to skirt the Kindle's restrictions, as well as add/remove features -- par for the course)

[Steerider]

Originally Posted by flandroid

Conditions imposed on the use of a product aren't exclusive to Amazon, knowledge of them shouldn't belong solely to some enlightened minority here on the forum (they're included with the documentation!), and implying that outrage over the 'inconvenience' is justified only encourages continued ignorance. Modifications of hardware or software on consumer items almost invariably absolves the provider of said product of any responsibility for user support on that item. Heck, it often voids a warranty.

While I agree with this, I also do believe it's rude for a company to upgrade your software without asking permission first. I opened my Kindle last night and it went straight into the upgrade routine, which took several minutes. This is a notable inconvenience for somebody who doesn't have a lot of spare time for reading -- having to wait ten minutes just to (in effect) turn on my device. There's absolutely no reason the update couldn't have waited until I decided to run it.

So yes, Amazon does actively inconvenience their customers with this policy -- even the ones who use the product "as is".

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by flandroid

I don't think finding a tantrum amusing is particularly rude.

Conditions imposed on the use of a product aren't exclusive to Amazon, knowledge of them shouldn't belong solely to some enlightened minority here on the forum (they're included with the documentation!), and implying that outrage over the 'inconvenience' is justified only encourages continued ignorance. Modifications of hardware or software on consumer items almost invariably absolves the provider of said product of any responsibility for user support on that item. Heck, it often voids a warranty.

(I've jailbroken three of the four Kindles I've owned over the years, for what it's worth. I've always been aware that future software updates may negate my efforts to skirt the Kindle's restrictions, as well as add/remove features -- par for the course)

I think you will find that various open-source and privacy advocates are equally outraged -- taking the stance that a ToS is not legally equipped to take ownership of a purchased device away from the consumer. It is thus highly immoral, and extremely questionable from a legal standpoint, for a manufacturer to lock out consumers from having power over their own purchased property.

We (yes, I agree with that stance) are still waiting for the court case that will consider -- and rule illegal -- the issue of the aggressive and despicable Tivoization employed by manufacturers.
Perhaps that happy day will come sooner when more people are alerted to the problem -- apathy and lack of general awareness will kill a movement every time. And speaking of "encouraging ignorance", I might say the same thing about people who simply accept that manufacturers will do whatever they please.

Considering that this is actually a well-known (for the topic of device lockdown, anyway) viewpoint, I don't consider it particularly tantrum-ish to express that opinion. I certainly wouldn't classify anyone who believes in the ideals of the Free Software Foundation to be throwing a tantrum...



Talking about the warranty and user support is missing the point on so many levels...

[cvkemp]

I will only say if you do not like their rules do not buy their products.

[eschwartz]

Moderator Notice

In fact, now that I think about it, you are being rather rude towards a person who is merely expressing their opinions about device and consumer freedom. You have no call insulting a person merely because you don't share their philosophy.

You might want to review our Posting Guidelines, especially this:

When things get controversial please disagree with the opinion, not the person.

Try to be sensitive to others when you post, and tolerant of others when you read their posts.

[flandroid]

I thought I spoke my points fairly and was, in fact, disagreeing with the opinion (or two opinions, I suppose, eventually). I don't think I insulted anyone, I suppose 'tantrum' is up for debate but I can't imagine the phone conversation with Amazon was particularly level-headed. I'm standing by it.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And speaking of "encouraging ignorance", I might say the same thing about people who simply accept that manufacturers will do whatever they please.

You might, and I wouldn't consider it an insult, though apparently you would, as you're holding similar sentiment in my replies as such. You might even be committing an infraction against the bit of the posting guidelines you quoted, only you're doing it more passive-aggressively than I might have.

Telling someone they're wrong isn't an insult, other than to their pride. I appreciate your reminding me why I stopped posting here.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Josieb1

You keep saying this but I always covert to mobi as you can't email KF8 to the Amazon clould and get the book cover. Mobi works fine. It's also the only kindle format other book sellers sell.

One thing you cannot do with Mobi is edit it easily. You can with KF8 in Calibre. So instead of having to edit the source ePub and then convert again to fix something needing fixing, you can directly edit the KF8.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

We (yes, I agree with that stance) are still waiting for the court case that will consider -- and rule illegal -- the issue of the aggressive and despicable Tivoization employed by manufacturers.

What does "Tizoization" mean?

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by Steerider

While I agree with this, I also do believe it's rude for a company to upgrade your software without asking permission first.

The problem with this is that the last few decades have shown us that if you don't at least "nudge" your users to upgrade they often become forgetful, fearful, or downright cantankerous with the upgrade process. Or ignore it completely. This opens them up to all sorts of security risks and incompatibilities that are often unnecessary. And for the record, when someone has neglected to update and falls victim to something, guess who they blame? Most of the time, the company. They want to be magically safe and have beautiful features while also not doing some of the things that may be required to be in such a blessed state. It is a rough problem and, when taken on balance, the decision to automatically update devices and software is probably the safer choice for the average consumer. (BTW, if you are on this forum, you probably aren't "the average consumer". )

The OP took matters into their own hands (modified how their device works) and now THEY are the one responsible for the experience of their device, not Amazon (This is, of course, just my opinion). This is a choice we all have to make when we purchase modern electronics and decide to do something with the electronic that it is not designed to do. It is neither right nor wrong, but it is a decision that has consequences. And sometimes those consequences are inconvenient or negative.

It's kinda like turning a lawn mower into a helicopter, and then complaining when the company recalls a certain component of the lawn mower that, thanks to what you have done, will bork your helicopter modification.

Originally Posted by HarryT

What does "Tizoization" mean?

I think the term was "Tivoization"... Tivo-ization? And I would also like to know what this means?!

[flandroid]

Tivoization refers to hardware manufacturers 'circumventing' free-software licenses by only allowing their devices to run versions of the software signed by the manufacturer itself. This makes some people mad because they believe that a free software license somehow implies an unalienable human right to run the software on any hardware of their choosing. Others believe that supplying the source code is enough to satisfy the software license.

Amazon provides all their Kindle source, and you are free to examine and modify it as you please, and even run it on your own hardware -- provided it isn't a Kindle, because the Kindle (without jailbreaking) will only accept Amazon-signed versions of its software to be installed and run.

Speaking only for myself, I'm fine with people being able to buy a second-hand Kindle on eBay without worrying that the browser has been modified to add a keylogger; others may disagree. The manufacturer has every right to protect its users (and itself) from wrongful or malicious use of the hardware, especially to avoid circumstances such as those described by Anthem above, or worse. But especially in these cases, where the provider and the device are inextricably linked by branding, allowing modified software to run could be a legal/publicity/financial nightmare -- user buys a hacked Kindle, runs to CNN yelling 'Amazon let Russian hackers steal my identity,' pitchforks outside Amazon HQ.