EU vice-president: Copyright legislation is “pushing people to steal”

[murg]

Originally Posted by ingmar

Not so. While individual states may enforce local minimum price laws in regards to books, they really can't do that when being sold from another state. This is a small problem with physical books, but an issue nevertheless (German books are sold to Hungary, say, at a discount and then re-imported). The "price fixing laws" only applies to in-country brick-and-mortar stores and online retailers.

Actually, now that the EU is charging non-EU sellers VAT for sales to EU addressed customers, the countries could require that the seller send them the difference between the sale price and the legal price and then distribute this to the publisher.

[ingmar]

Originally Posted by murg

Actually, now that the EU is charging non-EU sellers VAT for sales to EU addressed customers the countries could require that the seller send them the difference between the sale price and the legal price and then distribute this to the publisher.

They do? Can you be more specific? I know that if a seller in another EU country has a total value of sales to a particular EU country exceeding a certain limit (either EUR 35 000 or EUR 100 000, it depends) they must charge consumers in that country their (buyer's) VAT, but for sales from outside the EU? I don't really see how they could force outside states to do that.

Theoretically the buyer must then pay VAT at the point of import, of course.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by ingmar

They do? Can you be more specific? I know that if a seller in another EU country has a total value of sales to a particular EU country exceeding a certain limit (either EUR 35 000 or EUR 100 000, it depends) they must charge consumers in that country their (buyer's) VAT, but for sales from outside the EU? I don't really see how they could force outside states to do that.

Theoretically the buyer must then pay VAT at the point of import, of course.

I don't know about outside the EU, but in the EU for digital goods the dollar value threshold for collecting VAT for various countries is zero, unlike physical goods, and has had an affect on small ebook sellers...
http://ebooksdirect.dianeduane.com/p...-digital-sales

...whether this in some way applies to sellers outside the EU and is what murg is referring to I don't know.

[murg]

Originally Posted by ingmar

They do? Can you be more specific? I know that if a seller in another EU country has a total value of sales to a particular EU country exceeding a certain limit (either EUR 35 000 or EUR 100 000, it depends) they must charge consumers in that country their (buyer's) VAT, but for sales from outside the EU? I don't really see how they could force outside states to do that.

Theoretically the buyer must then pay VAT at the point of import, of course.

Discussed to death here...

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=252247

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The result of that would be much higher prices for the consumer. Every distributor would have to buy world-wide distribution rights, and the potential increase in sales would almost certainly not cover those additional costs, which would inevitably be passed on to the consumer. Are you willing to pay double or triple the existing price?

I don't really see the point in blocking sales of virtual goods to regions where there is no distributor. Especially when actual goods have no such restriction.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I don't really see the point in blocking sales of virtual goods to regions where there is no distributor. Especially when actual goods have no such restriction.

I agree with you entirely, but distributors can't simply ignore their contractual obligations - they risk being taken to court if they do.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I don't really see the point in blocking sales of virtual goods to regions where there is no distributor. Especially when actual goods have no such restriction.

I'd agree, but what about the case where there is no distributor yet.

Unless everything is going to be timed with distributors across all regions there will be a window where it is available in one area but not another, and there are sometimes good reasons why a delay is inevitable such as Americanizing books because they don't know what Yorkshire pudding is.

It will be near impossible to tell if the area has no distributor or they just haven't gotten around to releasing the product yet.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Good point, the equivalents around the world of the Net Book Agreement (Government mandated terms where the list price either can't be discounted or discounted only by a small percent only).
Theoretically, at least, by popular demand of the people (technically the government works for the people, although it more and more appears the other way around) to keep small/local booksellers in business.

Ending geo-restrictions would actually be illegal in these countries as it would contravene these laws if anyone could sell cross-border at any price they chose.

No, a shop can sell any book imported from across for any price they like. It's just Dutch paper books that have a set price. As everybody knows that electronic books aren't books...

And there's the crux of the problem. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" doesn't work for books. A physical item sales is not equal to a digital item sales. Which makes the digital book not a book.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I agree with you entirely, but distributors can't simply ignore their contractual obligations - they risk being taken to court if they do.

What contractual obligation? That's the problem, they don't have a contract. And you're not allowed to go somewhere else if you want to buy something electronic (but go ahead if you want that exact same product in a physical form!)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

What contractual obligation? That's the problem, they don't have a contract.

The contract between the publisher and the retailer, which says that the retailer is only allowed to sell to customers in country "X".

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The contract between the publisher and the retailer, which says that the retailer is only allowed to sell to customers in country "X".

I do not think contracts say that. I think the contract give you a license to sell in some places. The contracts is most probably silent about other places.

[eschwartz]

The contract seems to be very silent about selling the pbooks outside the licensed area...

[tompe]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

The contract seems to be very silent about selling the pbooks outside the licensed area...

You are not selling it outside the area. The point of sale is in the area that you have a license for.

[darryl]

1. The concept of "privity of contract" applicable in common law countries simply states the obvious. That is, that the contract cannot bind persons who are not party to it. This means that if a party sells outside the jurisdiction any action for breach of contract must be against that party, not against the buyer.
2. This does not mean that someone circumventing geographical restrictions is not possibly facing any liability. In some countries at least they may be flirting with criminal liability such as fraud in addition to any civil liability. The situation is simply too confusing and case law seems to be non-existent, so the position is far from clear.
3. In the case of internet sales, I doubt a party to the contract would even be in breach of any reasonable contractual term only because someone outside the region managed to purchase from them.
4. Like much in the electronic world, I think a breach will only occur if the party concerned is deliberately selling outside the region, or is so recklessly indifferent that they do not take reasonable measures to prevent such sales.
5. Both parties probably exploit the uncertainty about what measures need to be taken. If the party concerned implements some form of geo-blocking on its servers, so that customers outside the region must take deliberate steps to evade the operation of this software (eg; vpn, proxy, dns service), could they still be in breach? What about if such a customer also has to give a false address etc?
6. I doubt most present distributors are in breach of their contracts, though I also suspect that they will or are coming under increasing pressure to take ever more draconian (and unreasonable) steps to stop selling outside the relevant region.
7. The problem is such a difficult one that it is already on the political agenda. Because geographic restrictions are so ineffective, technically at least, rights holders likely will, if they have not already, call for legislative intervention.
8. We should not lose sight of the fact that, like many actions that rights holders propose, this would be for the purpose of doing what they see needs to be done to protect their own "rights" and preserve existing business models and structures. Private rights, not public rights, though lobbyists do often seek to frame their cases in terms of the public interest, often with absurd results.
9. Even if sales do take place outside the region which are breaches of the contract, are the breaches so serious that the contract can be terminated? Otherwise, what damage has occurred? How is the non-breaching party compensated for such breaches?

In short, we have a hornet's nest. I really doubt the system of selling rights by region can last for goods delivered electronically. It's best chance of survival in the longer term is draconian legislation by multiple nations, probably by International Treaty. Not impossible, but not likely. And not necessary. I see no public interest.

[disconnected]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Americanizing books because they don't know what Yorkshire pudding is.

Yet another reason to hate geo-restrictions -- people not being able to buy most ebooks in any language not native to the country they live in.

I want to buy my favorite British mysteries in English, not "American".

[Apache]

Originally Posted by disconnected

I want to buy my favorite British mysteries in English, not "American".

I prefer my British written books this way too.
Apache