Ursula K. Le Guin: “I keep Asking You Not to Buy Books from Amazon”

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, no. If you can propose easy enhancement that makes it much better according to everybody then it was badly written. You are confusing the skill to recognize badly written things with its existence.

Unless the intention of the author was "bad writing" in the first place....

Then it stops being "bad writing" and becomes style...

Think Heinlein's Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Think Heinlein's Moon Is A Harsh Mistress

I recently listened to the audio book. Vernacular with a Russian accent.
Fascinating choice, but not something I'd want as everyday fare.

I think the problem with the good/bad writing dichotomy (aside from being a false dichotomy) is that it's often a "No True Scotsman" argument.
Not limited to taste, but to whatever aspect of writing the person making the claim considers 'good,' at least once you get past the basics of standard spelling, usage and grammar.

But as far as "literary merit" or "good writing" beyond those basics, I'm not buying most people's claims to discerning objective standards.

I think I'm just agreeing with DiapDealer here.
Don't tell me Stephen King is not a 'good writer.' Being so effective a storyteller that so many people get wrapped up in--and emotionally moved by-- so many of your books is just as valid as standard of 'good writer' as any other. That's what I call a True Scotsman, anyway.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by ApK

I think the problem with the good/bad writing dichotomy (aside from being a false dichotomy) is that it's often a "No True Scotsman" argument.
Not limited to taste, but to whatever aspect of writing the person making the claim considers 'good,' at least once you get past the basics of standard spelling, usage and grammar.

But as far as "literary merit" or "good writing" beyond those basics, I'm not buying most people's claims to discerning objective standards.

I think I'm just agreeing with DiapDealer here.
Don't tell me Stephen King is not a 'good writer.' Being so effective a storyteller that so many people get wrapped up in--and emotionally moved by-- so many of your books is just as valid as standard of 'good writer' as any other. That's what I call a True Scotsman, anyway.

Exactly. A *good writer* brings me into the story and makes me live it. For me, if that doesn't happen, it's just a story--it can be entertaining, and I may read more from that author, but I won't necessarily seek out books from the author.

...and yes, usually, Stephen King is one of those authors. There are quite a few...Heinlein is one, David Weber, J.K.Rowling, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Madeleine L'Engle...Ursula K. Le Guin is not, at least for me.

Shari

[kennyc]

Have you ever read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas?
I'm not going to post the link cause Harry will delete it, but if you google the title....

[shalym]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Have you ever read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas?
I'm not going to post the link cause Harry will delete it, but if you google the title....

I don't think I have read it--I'll give it a try. When I look on Amazon, it looks like it is available in this collection: http://smile.amazon.com/Brave-Worlds...qid=1433798249
I've read some of the stories in there, but not all. I've bought it, and I'll read it tonight and let you know.

Shari

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by shalym

I don't think I have read it--I'll give it a try. When I look on Amazon, it looks like it is available in this collection: http://smile.amazon.com/Brave-Worlds...qid=1433798249
I've read some of the stories in there, but not all. I've bought it, and I'll read it tonight and let you know.

Shari

Cool! It's one of my favorite stories!

[tompe]

Originally Posted by ApK

I recently listened to the audio book. Vernacular with a Russian accent.
Fascinating choice, but not something I'd want as everyday fare.

I think the problem with the good/bad writing dichotomy (aside from being a false dichotomy) is that it's often a "No True Scotsman" argument.
Not limited to taste, but to whatever aspect of writing the person making the claim considers 'good,' at least once you get past the basics of standard spelling, usage and grammar.

But as far as "literary merit" or "good writing" beyond those basics, I'm not buying most people's claims to discerning objective standards.

I think I'm just agreeing with DiapDealer here.
Don't tell me Stephen King is not a 'good writer.' Being so effective a storyteller that so many people get wrapped up in--and emotionally moved by-- so many of your books is just as valid as standard of 'good writer' as any other. That's what I call a True Scotsman, anyway.

Of course Stephen Kings books are not badly written. I would argue that badly written is mostly an objective thing. If you then think the book is bad, OK, good or very good is probably mostly a matter of taste. But given a badly written book a better written book with the same story and so on is always to prefer.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Cool! It's one of my favorite stories!

Well, it is a lot of people favorite story or a story they remember. It is fun to a a nearly pure philosophical story but I am not sure I buy the "solution".

[Canuck_in_Japan]

I think Americans should focus on cutting the actual sweetened fat from their diets rather than the metaphorical sweetened fat.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan

I think Americans should focus on cutting the actual sweetened fat from their diets rather than the metaphorical sweetened fat.

Rather than? As if all of society must only talk about one thing a time? You fail on resource management.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan

I think Americans should focus on cutting the actual sweetened fat from their diets rather than the metaphorical sweetened fat.

Mmmmmm... Sweetened fat. /Homer

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Cool! It's one of my favorite stories!

Not one of mine. I could list a dozen that I prefer better.

Let's see...

Asimov - It's a Beautiful Day
Leiber - Rum Titty Titty Tum Tah Tee (or something like that)
Kuttner - Home Is The Hunter
Heinlein - Jerry Was A Man
C.L. Moore - No Woman Born
Ellison - Repent Harlequin, Said The Tick-Tock Man
Kornbluth - The Little Black Bag
Clarke - The Nine Billion Names Of God
Godwin - The Cold Equations
Cordwainer Smith - On The Sand Planet
Sturgeon - The Man Who Lost the Sea
Eric Frank Russell - Study In Still Life
David Drake - The Way We Die

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by tompe

And historically I do not know if we really had actual popular books that sold a lot and was badly written. They seem to have become much more common the last 30 years and very much more common the last 5-10 years.

Penny dreadfuls were extremely popular in 19th century Britain, and according to the British Library, the focus was very much on producing sensational cheap stories that could be sold in large numbers.

Originally Posted by British Library

Gentleman Jack was published over four years, without too much worry for historical accuracy or continuity. (One character was, rather carelessly, killed twice.)

[tompe]

Well, penny dreadfuls were not books.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by tompe

Well, penny dreadfuls were not books.

So what were they? Fish?