Windows 10 - free upgrade to those with PC using Windows 7 or 8

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Android, being a general multipurpose device, then qualifies as a general multipurpose linux OS since it can and is used as such.

I don't think many people are going to agree with you that Android devices run Linux. Even though, as you rightly say, Android is built on a Linux kernel, it's generally considered to be a distinct o/s from Linux.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That insinuation was based off HarryT's seeming implication that "general-purpose OS" is one where the user needs to know what he is using in order to use it properly -- I insinuated right back that most people don't know how to use Windows and whatever knowledge they may have that "this is Windows" certainly isn't helping them use it any more effectively.

Can you elaborate on your claim that "most people don't know how to use Windows"? The overwhelming majority (something like 90%, I believe?) of desktop PCs run Windows; why do you believe that their owners don't know how to use them? What level of knowledge do you believe constitutes an ability to use it?

[murg]

Originally Posted by shalym

So we've established that all non-Windows systems are running Unix, right?

There are many operating systems out there.

Windows and Linux are but two of them.

Linux is very similar to Unix, but it is a different operating system. There are many flavours of Unix. And even more flavours of Linux.

[SleepyBob]

I would delineate them by what actions a user takes to troubleshoot when something goes wrong on a stock device.

Windows: Run virus checker exe, install a driver, change a registry setting (after googling), reinstall Windows

Linux: google, google, sudo/apt-get commands

Kindle/Android: uninstall programs, reboot, call customer service, live with it

The typical troubleshooting process is very distinct for the three groups. So that's my "quacks like a duck" litmus test.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by SleepyBob

The typical troubleshooting process is very distinct for the three groups. So that's my "quacks like a duck" litmus test.

That's very interesting. I would not have thought of it that way. I like it.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Glorfindel

Beta testers get RTM version free from MS.

Hey...is there an RTM already? Did we miss some actual Windows 10 news!?

[Glorfindel]

Not yet, I wish though

[shalym]

Originally Posted by murg

There are many operating systems out there.

Windows and Linux are but two of them.

Linux is very similar to Unix, but it is a different operating system. There are many flavours of Unix. And even more flavours of Linux.

So are you saying that just because a Linux shell prompt is similar to a Unix shell prompt, and because someone used to using Unix would be comfortable using Linux, you're saying that the two Operating systems aren't the same?? But...that would mean that Android and Linux aren't the same Operating systems either, right??

Shari

Originally Posted by shalym

So are you saying that just because a Linux shell prompt is similar to a Unix shell prompt, and because someone used to using Unix would be comfortable using Linux, you're saying that the two Operating systems aren't the same?? But...that would mean that Android and Linux aren't the same Operating systems either, right??

If you replace the bash shell with the zsh under Linux, does Linux cease being Linux? If you install the utilities that usually ship with a Linux distribution on Windows, does Windows suddenly become Linux? At the end of the day, Linux is just a kernel. It is convenient to throw a few other bits and pieces simply to separate Linux as a general purpose OS and Linux as an OS for embedded devices. Yet throwing in too many bits and pieces creates nonsensical scenarios. Is Linux actually Linux if you replace X11 with Wayland? What about replacing the SysV init with systemd? Or the GNU utilities with the BSD utilities?

As for Unix, it's little more than a trademark these days. Linux cannot be called Unix because it hasn't been certified to use that trademark. Even if it was, it would only describe belong to a class of operating systems rather than being the operating system itself.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by shalym

So are you saying that just because a Linux shell prompt is similar to a Unix shell prompt, and because someone used to using Unix would be comfortable using Linux, you're saying that the two Operating systems aren't the same?? But...that would mean that Android and Linux aren't the same Operating systems either, right??

Shari

That's actually a very different matter. Linux was explicit written to be compatible with UNIX--to work the same way, run the same programs, etc, but to not use any of it's proprietary code. Like GNU, it exists pretty much expressly so one can have UNIX without UNIX.

Android, much like GEOS and early versions of Windows, is a distinctly different operating environment with it's own behaviors, it's own runtime libraries, design patterns, standards, APIs, etc, that sits on top of another OS and uses it's services (and occasionally, as in the case of the NDK, provides a way for developers to reach down into that underlying OS, only if necessary.)

But it provides its own user and development face, distinctly different and independent of the underlying OS.
Windows was eventually totally decoupled from DOS, GEOS ran on multiple platforms, and I suspect if there was any reason to, Android could be implemented on top of something other than the Linux kernel, and would still work about the same.
That's a another litmus test, I guess.

ApK

[kacir]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

If you replace the bash shell with the zsh under Linux, ...
As for Unix, it's little more than a trademark these days. ...

Have a look here for an answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#P...rating_systems

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

POSIX (/ˈpɒzɪks/ poz-iks), an acronym for Portable Operating System Interface,[1] is a family of standards specified by the IEEE Computer Society for maintaining compatibility between operating systems. POSIX defines the application programming interface (API), along with command line shells and utility interfaces, for software compatibility with variants of Unix and other operating systems.

There are many fully compliant compliant systems and even more partially compliant - Linux is among them.

There is even POSIX subsystem you can install in Windows, called Cygwin and a few others - one even provided by Microsoft (complete together with a Korn shell, cca Win 2000 era).

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Programmers have ported many Unix, GNU, BSD and Linux programs and packages to Cygwin, including the X Window System, K Desktop Environment 3, GNOME,[3] Apache, and TeX. Cygwin permits installing inetd, syslogd, sshd, Apache, and other daemons as standard Windows services, allowing Microsoft Windows systems to emulate Unix and Linux servers.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygwin

[ApK]

Originally Posted by kacir

Have a look here for an answer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#P...rating_systems



There are many fully compliant compliant systems and even more partially compliant - Linux is among them.

There is even POSIX subsystem you can install in Windows, called Cygwin and a few others - one even provided by Microsoft (complete together with a Korn shell, cca Win 2000 era).
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygwin

This could get downright epistemological!
Ship of Theseus, anyone?
If you replace every function in an OS with a function from another OS, is it still the same OS?

[kacir]

Originally Posted by ApK

This could get downright epistemological!
Ship of Theseus, anyone?
If you replace every function in an OS with a function from another OS, is it still the same OS?

You can even have X-window, KDE and console with six different shells and other assorted utilities running under Windows. It is some time since I had that running, so I do not know how those things run under Windows 8 or even Windows 10 [just to get back to the topic ]

There is even AndLinux. Linux kernel [project colinux] - with Ubuntu system on the top - running as a Windows binary.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think many people are going to agree with you that Android devices run Linux. Even though, as you rightly say, Android is built on a Linux kernel, it's generally considered to be a distinct o/s from Linux.

I know there are many ways to look at this, but the fact remains that Linux is the kernel and Android uses the Linux kernel. It's as much a Linux distribution as is Ubuntu -- or even the various embedded Linux distributions.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think many people are going to agree with you that Android devices run Linux. Even though, as you rightly say, Android is built on a Linux kernel, it's generally considered to be a distinct o/s from Linux.

MacOS was built on a Unix kernel, but no one including Apple would suggest that Macs ran Unix, at least out of the box.