My perspective on buying books with DRM - Page 16

pdurrant · 05-07-2015, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeera

I'm in a lot of trouble, then, because I've read aloud to my child in libraries, cafes, parks, trains, and all sorts of other places.

If it was only to your children and close friends, I'm sure it was fine. However, if you went to the market square, put out your hat, and attracted a crowd of (possibly paying/tipping) children to read to, I'm sure that wouldn't be OK.

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

If it was only to your children and close friends, I'm sure it was fine. However, if you went to the market square, put out your hat, and attracted a crowd of (possibly paying/tipping) children to read to, I'm sure that wouldn't be OK.

I'm pretty sure that the issue of payment is not a factor in determining whether or not copyright infringement has occurred. It's the fact that the public has access to the performance that determines whether or not it's "public", so reading a book out loud quietly to your children while sitting on a park bench is OK, but standing on a soapbox and declaiming the same story in a loud voice is not. The first is not intended for anyone else to hear; the second is.

GERGE · 05-07-2015, 04:23 AM

There can be nothing wrong with reading aloud to children in a kindergarten or in a children's room of a library.

Even if the law says so, it won't be enforceable and will be overturned if a conflict arises. One could even argue that such a law don't even have to be followed. I don't know the English law about this, but I know international agreements and EU regulations UK is a part of. And they have stronger constitutional power compared to mere acts and precedent and yes, I know there is much discussion about this in UK; but I have said many times here that international law is much more important when it comes to intellectual property.

To be more clear EU law and international agreements UK signed clearly allow such an use, and UK agreed to comply.

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GERGE

To be more clear EU law and international agreements UK signed clearly allow such an use, and UK agreed to comply.

I don't believe you're correct. Which specific EU law or international agreement do you believe permits such a public performance without the copyright holder's permission?

UK copyright law is extremely clear about this. Section 19 of the 1988 "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act" says:

Quote:

19 Infringement by performance, showing or playing of work in public.

(1) The performance of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.

(2) In this Part “performance”, in relation to a work—

(a) includes delivery in the case of lectures, addresses, speeches and sermons, and

(b) in general, includes any mode of visual or acoustic presentation, including presentation by means of a sound recording, film or broadcast of the work.

(3) The playing or showing of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a sound recording, film or broadcast.

(4) Where copyright in a work is infringed by its being performed, played or shown in public by means of apparatus for receiving visual images or sounds conveyed by electronic means, the person by whom the visual images or sounds are sent, and in the case of a performance the performers, shall not be regarded as responsible for the infringement.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/19

Paragraph 2(a) is what covers reading books out loud in public.

GERGE · 05-07-2015, 04:38 AM

I am not talking about public performance. Weren't we talking about reading to children in a library, in a room for children or something like that?

This is not public performance. Reading to children in a mall is, but library isn't.

Also, Copyright Directive's Article 5 (May I ask a question here? Should I write Article 5 with capital 'a'?) says that exceptions are made for libraries, educational establishments or museums, or by archives, which are not for direct or indirect economic or commercial advantage (this directive is from 2001 by the way, UK should have implemented it, apparently didn't).

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GERGE

I am not talking about public performance. Weren't we talking about reading to children in a library, in a room for children or something like that?

That is indeed what we're talking about, but a library is a public space, therefore a reading in a library is a public performance.

Quote:

Also, Copyright Directive's Article 5 (May I ask a question here? Should I write Article 5 with calital 'a'?) says that exceptions are made for libraries, educational establishments or museums, or by archives, which are not for direct or indirect economic or commercial advantage.

Exceptions to what, specifically? Ie. what are such institutions permitted to do that other places are not? As you say, if the UK didn't implement it, it doesn't apply in the UK.

(Yes, I would write "Article 5" with a capital "A" when referring to a section of a law, although it's not wrong to use lower-case.)

GERGE · 05-07-2015, 04:48 AM

Exceptions are to Article 2 which defines rights to reproduction by any means and in any form.

And I still don't believe that readings in libraries can be classified as public performances. But it is probably something that can be argued, I will ask this to a judge from the supreme court to get his opinion.

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GERGE

Exceptions are to Article 2 which defines rights to reproduction by any means and in any form.

Sorry, what I mean is what are the exceptions? Are you saying that in those countries which have implemented this EU Directive, museums, libraries, etc, are free to reproduce copyrighted works without any restriction whatsoever?

GERGE · 05-07-2015, 05:00 AM

No, of course there are limitations. Copyright law of EU as a whole explains it quite well, I don't have much time now but it is very similar to fair use doctrine. Making copies of rare texts for study (doesn't have to be old, we have 40-50 years old and very rare law texts in library of our firm, I scanned them for protection already), reading to children as we are discussing. Usually temporary copies. Meaning recording your reading in library is no-go but there could be exceptions to this too in the case of rare or delicate books.

EU law is usually very open to interpretation but it is quite clear in our topic for once.

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GERGE

No, of course there are limitations. Copyright law of EU as a whole explains it quite well, I don't have much time now but it is very similar to fair use doctrine. Making copies of rare texts for study (doesn't have to be old, we have 40-50 years old and very rare law texts in library of our firm, I scanned them for protection already), reading to children as we are discussing. Usually temporary copies. Meaning recording your reading in library is no-go but there could be exceptions to this too in the case of rare or delicate books.

EU law is usually very open to interpretation but it is quite clear in our topic for once.

Thanks. UK law also allows copying for academic study - it's one of the three permitted exemptions in the "Fair Dealing" clause of the law.

GERGE · 05-07-2015, 05:15 AM

No problem, I am always happy to share what I know.

PS. Lawyers in Turkey doesn't even have fees for small consultations (like giving an hour of your time if you are free to someone ringing the door) as a custom

murg · 05-07-2015, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Paragraph 2(a) is what covers reading books out loud in public.

How about if you sign the book?

"sign" as in sign language...

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murg

How about if you sign the book?

"sign" as in sign language...

That would still be a performance of the work. So, to repeat my previous question, what does Australian copyright law say about public performances? I know Australian law is generally, but not always, similar to British law.

MikeB1972 · 05-07-2015, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That would still be a performance of the work. So, to repeat my previous question, what does Australian copyright law say about public performances? I know Australian law is generally, but not always, similar to British law.

Actually, Harry, it might come under the exception allowing for disabled access. This only comes into play if no suitable commercial versions are available of course.

HarryT · 05-07-2015, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Actually, Harry, it might come under the exception allowing for disabled access. This only comes into play if no suitable commercial versions are available of course.

What exception is this, Mike? Do you have a reference, please? I wasn't aware of such an exception.

05-07-2015, 04:38 AM	#230
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	I am not talking about public performance. Weren't we talking about reading to children in a library, in a room for children or something like that? This is not public performance. Reading to children in a mall is, but library isn't. Also, Copyright Directive's Article 5 (May I ask a question here? Should I write Article 5 with capital 'a'?) says that exceptions are made for libraries, educational establishments or museums, or by archives, which are not for direct or indirect economic or commercial advantage (this directive is from 2001 by the way, UK should have implemented it, apparently didn't). Last edited by GERGE; 05-07-2015 at 04:42 AM.

05-07-2015, 04:48 AM	#232
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	Exceptions are to Article 2 which defines rights to reproduction by any means and in any form. And I still don't believe that readings in libraries can be classified as public performances. But it is probably something that can be argued, I will ask this to a judge from the supreme court to get his opinion. Last edited by GERGE; 05-07-2015 at 04:52 AM.

05-07-2015, 05:00 AM	#234
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	No, of course there are limitations. Copyright law of EU as a whole explains it quite well, I don't have much time now but it is very similar to fair use doctrine. Making copies of rare texts for study (doesn't have to be old, we have 40-50 years old and very rare law texts in library of our firm, I scanned them for protection already), reading to children as we are discussing. Usually temporary copies. Meaning recording your reading in library is no-go but there could be exceptions to this too in the case of rare or delicate books. EU law is usually very open to interpretation but it is quite clear in our topic for once. Last edited by GERGE; 05-07-2015 at 05:02 AM.

05-07-2015, 05:15 AM	#236
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	No problem, I am always happy to share what I know. PS. Lawyers in Turkey doesn't even have fees for small consultations (like giving an hour of your time if you are free to someone ringing the door) as a custom Last edited by GERGE; 05-07-2015 at 05:18 AM.

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05-07-2015, 04:23 AM	#228
GERGE Guru Posts: 733 Karma: 5797160 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Istanbul Device: Kobo Libra	There can be nothing wrong with reading aloud to children in a kindergarten or in a children's room of a library. Even if the law says so, it won't be enforceable and will be overturned if a conflict arises. One could even argue that such a law don't even have to be followed. I don't know the English law about this, but I know international agreements and EU regulations UK is a part of. And they have stronger constitutional power compared to mere acts and precedent and yes, I know there is much discussion about this in UK; but I have said many times here that international law is much more important when it comes to intellectual property. To be more clear EU law and international agreements UK signed clearly allow such an use, and UK agreed to comply.