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Old 04-22-2015, 12:28 AM   #391
Gregg Bell
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Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
shred = secure delete.

Yes, you get the space back.
If I'd chosen "overwrite" instead of "shred" would I have got the space back? And which is more secure?
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:32 AM   #392
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What I don't understand is why you think it might not be.
Hi Dennis. Because of the word. If it's shredding the file it means it's chopped up in little pieces.
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There are a variety of secure delete programs available, and all work in the same basic manner.

When you delete files from a drive using the OS, what you are removing is the pointers to the files and the space they occupy. That space is marked as free, and can be reused by the OS the next time it needs it. The potential issue is that the underlying data those files contain is still on the drive in that freed space, and can potentially be recovered. Secure delete programs not only delete the pointers to the files - they overwrite the data on the the areas those files occupied with random garbage, to make it impossible to recover.

Whether you use the standard OS file delete routines or a secure delete, you get the freed space back. You go with a secure delete solution because you think the data in the deleted files is sensitive enough that you want no chance for it to be recovered. (Extreme caution is needed, because you won't be able to recover it either if you delete the wrong thing.)

I have a couple of programs like that and have yet to use them. Very little data here is that sensitive, and stuff like that isn't kept on my HD. It's on a USB thumbdrive that is removed when the data isn't required, and stored elsewhere. If I replaced the HD in my machine, I might reformat it before tossing it, but wouldn't bother to securely wipe it - there's nothing on it that would give me heartburn if an unknown third party did recover it.
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Thanks for the explanation. I don't have anything that important. I just watched "Citizen Four" and it aggravates me that the NSA and all these Google-type companies can pretty much do whatever they want with my data.

Makes me want to try Mega.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:35 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
DMcCunney is correct, though I'd caution that just because you didn't save it on the hard drive, doesn't mean that it wasn't on your hard drive (as a temporary file saved by the program working with the data or RAM that was swapped to disk). You might want to secure delete your temp folder and secure overwrite all empty space now and then. Also, SSDs change the game a lot because they logically remap the physical space to do wear balancing and overwriting a file in place to do a secure wipe doesn't guarantee that it's actually overwritten. For this reason many SSDs provide a secure wipe mechanism, but they usually (AFAIK) only wipe the entire drive, not just the free space. A periodic wipe of free space by creating a HUGE file that fills all empty space can help with that, **BUT** most hard drives (both SSD and mechanical) also reserve an area to use as the drive starts detecting errors, remapping bad sectors into the reserve space. Any data that was in the areas marked as bad is potentially still laying around. Again, the reason why drive manufacturers provide a secure wipe functionality for the drive because the internal details of that remapping and bad space are hidden from the operating system -- only the drive knows about it.

If you care that much about your data security you MUST use an encrypted filesystem from day one and destroy it when you're done with it.
Thanks twowheels. That makes it seem pretty iffy to ever really securely delete something. Oh well. But what do you mean by an encrypted filesystem?
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:46 AM   #394
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shred = secure delete = overwrite.

It is indeed iffy to properly delete something -- at least, for those who truly care and are desperate to wipe files off the face of the earth. Generally the government. They would use encrypted filesystems. They also practice sledgehammer-style decommissioning of old computers.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:28 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Gregg Bell View Post
Hi Dennis. Because of the word. If it's shredding the file it means it's chopped up in little pieces.
What's the point to chopping a file into little unusable pieces and leaving the pieces around to clutter the drive? If your answer is "None", you got it in one. If your answer is anything else, you need to learn more.

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Thanks for the explanation. I don't have anything that important. I just watched "Citizen Four" and it aggravates me that the NSA and all these Google-type companies can pretty much do whatever they want with my data.
<snort>

I see paranoia about the NSA elsewhere, including folks convinced MS is in league with the NSA, and left back doors in Windows so the NSA could snoop on their machines. All I can say is "You wish you were important enough that anyone could be bothered to do that. You're not important, you don't matter, and no one in a position of power cares what you think! You are an insignificant flyspeck on the windowpane of the Internet. Deal with it and get over yourself."

I don't particularly care about Google, either. If I did, I wouldn't use Gmail as my primary email account, polling the others, wouldn't use Google Docs, wouldn't use Google Drive for cloud storage, and wouldn't use various other Google services I find handy. The stuff Google knows about me is not stuff I am concerned with keeping private.

There are three areas where I have privacy concerns: finances, health, and my sex life. My finance records are in the hands of my bank and CC issuers, and my health records are in the hands of my doctors and dentist. Those folks all have legal as well as moral requirements to keep it private. My sex life never gets online to begin with.

For the rest, I'm an open book. I don't worry a lot about things like tracking. The trackers want to better understand who I am and what they might be able to sell me. Fine by me: like everyone else, I buy goods and services, and like everyone else, ads are a way I discover things I might wish to buy. The better targeted the pitch, the less time I spend separating wheat from chaff.

For the odd occasion where I'm poking around in the seamier parts of the Internet, I have the technology to remain anonymous. I just don't normally see a need to deploy it.

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Makes me want to try Mega.
I can't be bothered.
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Old 04-23-2015, 12:43 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
shred = secure delete = overwrite.

It is indeed iffy to properly delete something -- at least, for those who truly care and are desperate to wipe files off the face of the earth. Generally the government. They would use encrypted filesystems. They also practice sledgehammer-style decommissioning of old computers.
So it doesn't matter if I choose shred or overwrite?

Interesting link. Thanks.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:01 AM   #397
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What's the point to chopping a file into little unusable pieces and leaving the pieces around to clutter the drive? If your answer is "None", you got it in one. If your answer is anything else, you need to learn more.


<snort>

I see paranoia about the NSA elsewhere, including folks convinced MS is in league with the NSA, and left back doors in Windows so the NSA could snoop on their machines. All I can say is "You wish you were important enough that anyone could be bothered to do that. You're not important, you don't matter, and no one in a position of power cares what you think! You are an insignificant flyspeck on the windowpane of the Internet. Deal with it and get over yourself."

I don't particularly care about Google, either. If I did, I wouldn't use Gmail as my primary email account, polling the others, wouldn't use Google Docs, wouldn't use Google Drive for cloud storage, and wouldn't use various other Google services I find handy. The stuff Google knows about me is not stuff I am concerned with keeping private.

There are three areas where I have privacy concerns: finances, health, and my sex life. My finance records are in the hands of my bank and CC issuers, and my health records are in the hands of my doctors and dentist. Those folks all have legal as well as moral requirements to keep it private. My sex life never gets online to begin with.

For the rest, I'm an open book. I don't worry a lot about things like tracking. The trackers want to better understand who I am and what they might be able to sell me. Fine by me: like everyone else, I buy goods and services, and like everyone else, ads are a way I discover things I might wish to buy. The better targeted the pitch, the less time I spend separating wheat from chaff.

For the odd occasion where I'm poking around in the seamier parts of the Internet, I have the technology to remain anonymous. I just don't normally see a need to deploy it.


I can't be bothered.
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Hey Dennis,

For me, I make the analogy with companies outside of the internet. They can contact me to try to sell me stuff as long as it's through appropriate channels or use the data I give them (and even that would have to be within certain agreed upon limits). But if a company started following me around, taking snapshots of everything I do, going through my mail, I would object.

That's why I object when it happens on the internet.

Whether I'm important or not has nothing to do with it. And it's not a question of paranoia. It's a question of privacy.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:26 AM   #398
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Whether I'm important or not has nothing to do with it. And it's not a question of paranoia. It's a question of privacy.
Well said. We don't need to justify our privacy.
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Old 04-23-2015, 01:14 PM   #399
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So it doesn't matter if I choose shred or overwrite?

Interesting link. Thanks.
No, it really doesn't. If you read the bleachbit documentation in the "Limits of shredding files and wiping free disk space" section you'll see that there are many ways that data will be left behind, regardless of which method you're using...

http://bleachbit.sourceforge.net/doc...iles-wipe-disk

Unless you're guarding state secrets or doing something highly illegal I'd suggest that neither mode of wiping is necessary -- just set up a periodically scheduled wipe of free space if it makes you more comfortable -- which would also handle (some of) the other issues described in that section.

(I say some of, because none of these methods can wipe the sectors marked as bad and remapped by the hard-drive)
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:35 PM   #400
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For me, I make the analogy with companies outside of the internet. They can contact me to try to sell me stuff as long as it's through appropriate channels or use the data I give them (and even that would have to be within certain agreed upon limits). But if a company started following me around, taking snapshots of everything I do, going through my mail, I would object.
Er, define "appropriate channels". For instance, I get lots of postal junk mail. Most of it is from credit card issuers who want me to open a new account with them, or transfer existing balances. My SO and I have a number of cards, from Amex, Discover, Mastercard, and Visa, and because we pay our bills on time and usually pay more than the minimum, we have a high credit score, and get lots of offers like that. I just announce "land fill" when I pick up the mail, because most gets torn up and tossed out unread.

(Some of it is announcements of changes in our accounts, and my SO says "They just raised our credit limit again!" My answer is "So? We have credit cards. We run up balances. We pay them off. We have a high credit score in consequence. We are the kind of customer they want, and we are being given the opportunity to run up higher balances and pay more fees as a result. Since we don't plan to actually use those higher credit lines, who cares?")

All of it appears because of existing relationships we have with the various CC companies. My SO also gets a number of catalogs from mail order retailers she sometimes buys from.

As for "going through my mail", my primary email account is Gmail. My mail resides on Google's servers. I established a Gmail account back when it was still in invitational beta status, because a fellow member of a mailing list I was on worked for Google at the time and was handing out invites. I happily took one. Another list member was balking because <gasp> Google could read her mail. The chap offering invites simply explained that the things that read her mail were search algorithms looking for keywords so Gmail could offer hopefully relevant ads for things that might be of interest. I carefully bit my tongue and did not say "Assuming they could, why should a human being at Google bother to read your mail? Who are you? What makes your mail of any particular interest?" (The real answers to those questions would be "nobody" and "nothing".)

Back when I got email via POP and read it on Outlook, I was still theoretically vulnerable - email would be delivered to my ISPs email server, and deposited in an Inbox directory assigned to me. It would be removed from the Inbox when I downloaded it, but would still be available while it was there and could theoretically be snooped upon by ISP employees. I was essentially trusting that my ISP would play by the rules, and not attempt to snoop on my mail without a valid court order directing them to do so.

In both cases, I am one of many, many customers, with nothing to make me stand out or give J. Random Human Being at my ISP or Google any reason to go digging. (And I've been a mail admin. I could create, remove, and repair accounts, but I didn't have the ability to read mail in those accounts, and I didn't have time to casually snoop even if I had wanted to.)

And I've never considered email secure, and as a rule, I generally don't say things in email that would give me heartburn if they were seen by someone other than the intended recipient. Should you happen to be able to read my mail, have fun. Unless you are me, you will be mystified or terminally bored. You won't find out anything I would be unhappy about you knowing. If it's that sensitive, I either don't say it in email, or I use GPG.

Quote:
That's why I object when it happens on the internet.

Whether I'm important or not has nothing to do with it. And it's not a question of paranoia. It's a question of privacy.
<shrug>

I generally advise people to think about what privacy they need, and what steps to take to get it.

On the Internet, "privacy" is a tricky concept. By being online at all, you are normally visible. To be really private, you disconnect your computer from the Internet and don't go online. That's a higher price than most folks are willing to pay. (It's a special case of the old saw "The perfectly secure computer is the perfectly unusable computer. It's always a trade off between security and ease of use.)

As mentioned, I don't especially care that where I go and what I look at online can be tracked. I'm not doing anything that would make me stand out or appear on anyone's radar screen. I had a discussion like that at an SF con a while back with a chap worried about being snooped upon by the US government. I asked what would make him of special interest?" "I call them fascists!" "You and about a million other people. I repeat, what makes you of special interest?"

Most discussions I see of online privacy have roots in feelings by the ones making complaints that they are helpless, powerless, and not in control of their own lives. I don't share those feelings. I could theoretically take more steps than I do to guard my privacy, but don't bother. I reserve my efforts for things I consider more important. I have the control I need, and don't sweat the rest.
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Old 04-23-2015, 03:41 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Gregg Bell View Post
Hey Dennis,

For me, I make the analogy with companies outside of the internet. They can contact me to try to sell me stuff as long as it's through appropriate channels or use the data I give them (and even that would have to be within certain agreed upon limits). But if a company started following me around, taking snapshots of everything I do, going through my mail, I would object.

That's why I object when it happens on the internet.

Whether I'm important or not has nothing to do with it. And it's not a question of paranoia. It's a question of privacy.
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Well said. We don't need to justify our privacy.
Agreed -- no need to make it any easier for people. That is one of the reasons why I have a set of browser extensions for avoiding ads and social media tracking.

If the government makes a concerted effort to track me, I am probably toast anyway. But short of that, there is no reason to just give stuff to the nosy media companies.

Nor is there any reason to let just anyone plug in the hard drive and see all my info (if I was getting rid of an HDD). So I too would take certain basic precautions to avoid it.
My biggest defense against anyone wanting to do forensic analysis of remapped bad sectors is the sheer effort it takes. But on the other hand, file undelete programs are easy for any casual thief to use.

So... Just In Case... take certain basic precautions. It certainly doesn't hurt.
I don't usually drive myself crazy over it, I will grant you that.
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Old 04-23-2015, 06:34 PM   #402
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:54 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
No, it really doesn't. If you read the bleachbit documentation in the "Limits of shredding files and wiping free disk space" section you'll see that there are many ways that data will be left behind, regardless of which method you're using...

http://bleachbit.sourceforge.net/doc...iles-wipe-disk

Unless you're guarding state secrets or doing something highly illegal I'd suggest that neither mode of wiping is necessary -- just set up a periodically scheduled wipe of free space if it makes you more comfortable -- which would also handle (some of) the other issues described in that section.

(I say some of, because none of these methods can wipe the sectors marked as bad and remapped by the hard-drive)
Thanks twowheels. Since I was figuring I was wanting to get rid of the data (on a computer I was taking to the recycle center) I never even considered the "wipe" option. I'll check into it.
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:27 AM   #404
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Well said. We don't need to justify our privacy.
Thanks Jim
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:08 AM   #405
Gregg Bell
Gregg Bell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcCunney View Post

As for "going through my mail", my primary email account is Gmail. My mail resides on Google's servers. I established a Gmail account back when it was still in invitational beta status, because a fellow member of a mailing list I was on worked for Google at the time and was handing out invites. I happily took one. Another list member was balking because <gasp> Google could read her mail. The chap offering invites simply explained that the things that read her mail were search algorithms looking for keywords so Gmail could offer hopefully relevant ads for things that might be of interest. I carefully bit my tongue and did not say "Assuming they could, why should a human being at Google bother to read your mail? Who are you? What makes your mail of any particular interest?" (The real answers to those questions would be "nobody" and "nothing".)
Hey Dennis,

I think you're asking the wrong questions. The question should be, "Why is a human being or an algorithm reading/scanning my mail in the first place?"

And you're sticking with the 'you're not important enough to spy on' argument. What is that? That's not even an argument. Should only "important" people be accorded privacy?

And what makes my mail of any particular interest?

$

Why else do you think they're doing it? Like they're really curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcCunney View Post


And I've never considered email secure, and as a rule, I generally don't say things in email that would give me heartburn if they were seen by someone other than the intended recipient. Should you happen to be able to read my mail, have fun. Unless you are me, you will be mystified or terminally bored.
So that's you. Other people don't feel that way. Other people may want to say things they don't want people combing through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcCunney View Post

I generally advise people to think about what privacy they need, and what steps to take to get it.
So that's your solution--the big companies can do anything they want with your data and it's up to you to fend them off? Not much of a solution. And that would mean that anyone using the internet would have to be a security expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcCunney View Post

To be really private, you disconnect your computer from the Internet and don't go online. That's a higher price than most folks are willing to pay.
That's a price no one should have to pay. You know, what is the internet? Yeah, it's computers and codes and algorithms. It's fast and anonymous and a great information source. Yeah, it's all that, but the bottom line is: it's still people. And people (in civilized society anyway) have expectations for what is fair and so they make rules so that anyone that is not inclined to play by the rules will be stopped.

People lose sight of that. A lot of (unthinking) people act like the internet is this thing that is beyond the human realm. It's not. People are hitting all those keystrokes that are making the algorithms that spy on your mail. And people are making those decisions to spy on your mail.

And people can make the rules (and laws) to stop that spying (and all the other unfair things happening on the internet).


______
Dennis[/QUOTE]
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