Books without swear words - there's an app for that

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Barty

I've had it with these monkey flying censoring apps on this monkey flying phone.

Must be an Android phone. Apple phones are rotten.

[RobertDDL]

Originally Posted by GA Russell

However, if I wrote the app, I would not change the offensive word. I would do what Hammett did - print the first letter of the word and follow it with a long dash.

This may as well (or even more likely) be censorship by the publisher than the author's own decision. But this is something that I'm simply not able to understand: when you read "f--" and know that it means "fuck," so that "f--" in the text basically serves as a logogram for "fuck," what difference can this possibly make to having it spelled out?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RobertDDL

This may as well (or even more likely) be censorship by the publisher than the author's own decision. But this is something that I'm simply not able to understand: when you read "f--" and know that it means "fuck," so that "f--" in the text basically serves as a logogram for "fuck," what difference can this possibly make to having it spelled out?

That was Carlin's point in his (updated) routine, and mine, a few posts ago. You see it; your brain processes it; you hear the word in your head. How on EARTH can that possibly be somehow different than seeing it in print? For a 6-year-old, or 10-year-old...sure. But for an adult? It's not like one isn't processing the word. I absolutely don't understand that at all.

That's akin to saying that if your ears HEAR it, it's profanity. If your eyes see the abridged version, and send it to your brain, and your brain says it--well, that's not. That position is that your ears are more sacred ground than your brain--isn't it? Can anyone--anyone--explain the logic of that to me?

Vis-à-vis scorn: I don't have a problem with parenting choices. I have a problem with electronic parental-abdication babysitting apps, AND, with book censorship/abridgement in general, without parents doing what (one of the posters did), which was to read it WITH their children, and make informed, intelligent decisions about what their particular kids should/shouldn't hear. I wouldn't let other people decide what TV shows my kids could watch, or what religion to teach them (that's an hypothetical), why on earth would I let third parties decide what WORDS in a book they could read? That, to me, is daft. Worse...it's lazy.

Hitch

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The way I look at it is if a parent needs this app to protect his/her child, then that parent is nt doing a good job in terms of what the child is reading.

Or look at it another way: it may be a good way to expand what you permit the child to read, simply because of a few words.

If you are going to allow your kid(s) to read a book with inappropriate words, read the book first and discuss it with your kid(s). Or read it to your kid(s) and do the modifying of the words yourself so the meaning is kept and the words not changed too much to be incorrect or inappropriate.

Even though I don't entire agree with the app, I do see its place. This is a good example of it. Very few parents have the time to read and discuss every book with their child. In the past they would have dealt with this by selecting books from publishers that are family friendly, accepted the word of others, or used their own prior knowledge from reading as a child. All of these have their pitfalls. For example, their childhood reading experiences don't apply to newly published books. I have also run into teachers who regret selecting a book for read alouds with their students because a popular book from a school friendly publisher wasn't necessarily appropriate for all of the children in the class. I would imagine that the same applies to parents.

However, trust works very well. If I ever read a book that an app like that has changed and I found out about it, I would be very upset because to me it would feel like my parents do not trust me. And that's more damaging than the original words in the book.

Trust is to be earned, not given. Children who understand that are probably prepared to read those bad words because they understand that using bad words is a way to lose trust. Hopefully they would also have enough sense to ask about those words to understand why they are bad. Children who do not understand that trust is earned are unlikely to be prepared to read those bad words. It is best if each parent makes that decision based upon their own child, rather than letting an app do it. On the other hand, letting the app do it is making the decision after a fashion.

[DiapDealer]

Pitfalls.
In reading books.

Silliness.

Any reader young enough to "need" the app isn't ready to be reading on their own in the first place. And those who are ready, don't need the app (and certainly wouldn't let it stand in the way of reading the unexpurgated version of something that interested them--even if the app were foisted upon them).

You can instill your love of reading; and you can seek to instill your value system. But in my experience, success at the former requires a willingness to at least risk the possibility that the latter may not pan out. A love of reading isn't really something that can be steered in any particular direction. It can only be turned on or stifled.

[Barcey]

How are the kids going to learn how to spell the words they're speaking if they can't read them? It's not like they teach this stuff in school.

I look forward to seeing the '**** Cancer' tee-shirts and you can walk up and touch them to see what they really say. 'Fudge Cancer'

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by mr ploppy

I downloaded it for my phone last week, just to see what it would make of one of my books, but I couldn't figure out where you're supposed to put them. There's nothing to set your ebook directory, and no information with the app for how to open them.

The impression I get from the Guardian article is that you have to buy the books from the app publisher.

[ApK]

TL;DR, but I'm all for fighting the tide of coarse, impolite, unthinking, low-class speech. I don't try to prevent my kids from hearing/reading profanity, and we DO talk about polite and intelligent language choices, but fact is, the best way to learn a language is to be immersed in it, because your subconscious will start learning for you. Same goes for being immersed in profanity. I'd prefer they be immersed in better word choices.

Who was it that said: "The worldly gentleman is one who knows how to swear, and chooses not to."

Well, if it was no one, then some one should have. I'll take credit for it.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ApK

TL;DR, but I'm all for fighting the tide of coarse, impolite, unthinking, low-class speech. I don't try to prevent my kids from hearing/reading profanity, and we DO talk about polite and intelligent language choices, but fact is, the best way to learn a language is to be immersed in it, because your subconscious will start learning for you. Same goes for being immersed in profanity. I'd prefer they be immersed in better word choices.

Who was it that said: "The worldly gentleman is one who knows how to swear, and chooses not to."

Well, if it was no one, then some one should have. I'll take credit for it.

While I think the app sounds rather ridiculous, I am appalled by the coarseness of language that has become acceptable these days. Certain words used to have impact because they were shocking; today, not so much. I am sick of all the casual profanity.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pendragginp

In the first place, you're still assuming all kinds of bad things about a parent who may want to use this, including 'neglect'. There's no basis for that assumption at all. In fact, using an app like this can be could be another way for a parent to express his protection of his children from things he would consider harmful to them, while still expanding their exposure to books he might not otherwise be comfortable allowing them to read.

Au contraire.

Using the app IS the neglect. A responsible parent pays attention to the books his/her children read -- not hand over the responsibility to a frankly rather limited machine, which is doing a frankly rather half-assed job of making books kid-friendly.

In the second place I'm just astonished at the amount of scorn and bad intentions being heaped upon people who just don't like swearing in books. An awful lot of heat is being generated here, and for very little reason. We really don't need to control everyone, and it isn't a judgement on us if we think differently - so let's let them think differently too.

Um, okay, so why do you think that a book which is a bad book becomes a good book just because the naughty words are covered up? Are your kids too stupid to realize that there is swearing going on? I doubt it...

I would generally expect the books that have a swearing issue to have multiple *other* reasons why kids shouldn't be reading them.

Most bowdlerizers at least have the decency to work on the book and create a kid-frendly version that a) makes sense, b) actually conceals the existence of adult topics, instead of highlighting them.
There is actually a market for such books, one which is currently being served, and I wish them all the best of luck -- not that they need my wishes, they seem to be doing all right.

What I'm objecting to here is the lack of live and let live, and the assumptions of all kinds of bad things about people we don't even know. It's the opposite of liberal.

Oh, well, if that was all... I am fine with that. I'm not a liberal.
Best we avoid that line of thought, though -- unless you'd like to continue a dangerously political topic in the opt-in Politics and Religion subforum.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Catlady

While I think the app sounds rather ridiculous, I am appalled by the coarseness of language that has become acceptable these days. Certain words used to have impact because they were shocking; today, not so much. I am sick of all the casual profanity.

Catlady:

But isn't that the entire point? I mean, it wasn't that long ago that "bloody" in the UK was swearing. Nor could you say "breast" or "thigh" or anything along those lines. DAMN was "coarse." There are dozens of other examples of language that was once construed coarse, which no longer is. Which among us would squeak about anyone saying "that bloody idiot.." nowadays? No one, as far as I know, but they would have apparently during my lifetime.

Language does change. So do attitudes and the like. Words that were in common use (the "n" word) go OUT of usage, because folks are newly offended by it, in light of new sensibilities and sensitivities.

If one lives in a singular location, where everyone belongs to the same church, religion, ministry, or whatever, with no variables...then, arguably, everyone's sensibilities would be the same. But there are few, if any of us, in such an environment any longer. To me, the idea of "profane" is connected, irrevocably, with religion, by definition and traditional thought. To me, the use of one word to mean scat--about which nobody would give a moment's thought--and a second, which is construed as childish, about which nobody gives a thought--to a third, about which people are suddenly up in arms, makes no sense. SAME EXACT MEANING. Why is the third word "coarse" when neither scat nor poop is?

Same with "sex" and its various. Or "bloody." Or "damned."

To me, the idea that you can tell anything about anyone by whether or not they curse is outdated and outmoded. It's another way of constricting people into little "boxes," that make the world easy, so people don't have to think any deeper than "oh, that person said S---! That makes them BAD!" We already have such an abundance of brainless activity in the world, why encourage it? The more modern shallowness of thinking, IMHO, shouldn't be abetted by further restrictions; rather that someone should accidentally read a bad word, be offended by it, research it, delve into it, and expend actual braincells, than simply bleep it out and continue on with their mindless ways.

And, to be clear: I'm not saying that anyone in this thread is mindless. But the failure of people to bother to THINK, the last 10-20 years, is really disturbing to me, and this bit of software just feels, to me, like one more advance in that direction--letting someone ELSE do the thinking, the deciding, the choosing for you. Isn't it bad enough we have "journalists" that enable this already? No need to read newspapers, no need to research both sides, just find idiots who will reaffirm one's confirmation bias, instead of challenging oneself to grow? Isn't this app just more of the same?

</rant> Done with this one now, but honestly...been ripped off by more POLITE people than "rude" or "coarse," over the past 4 decades.

(And I agree: this likely ought to move to a more appropriate forum, if it's going to continue.)

Hitch

[murg]

"Psst...hey kid...yeah you...wanna library book...has all the words in it...yeah, it's the good stuff..."

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

To me, the idea of "profane" is connected, irrevocably, with religion, by definition and traditional thought.

Just wanted to underline this thought. I quite agree.

Originally Posted by murg

"Psst...hey kid...yeah you...wanna library book...has all the words in it...yeah, it's the good stuff..."

That reminds me of the time that I spent on a First Nation. I would often walk to the bush with a book in hand to enjoy a peaceful hour or two of reading, as well as watch the goings-on on the lake. Almost every day a couple of kindergarten aged children would race up to me as I approached a shady corner and insist upon getting their fix of words. I swear those kids would have paid a quarter for the privilege, thus allowing me to become the town's illicit book dealer.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

That reminds me of the time that I spent on a First Nation. I would often walk to the bush with a book in hand to enjoy a peaceful hour or two of reading, as well as watch the goings-on on the lake. Almost every day a couple of kindergarten aged children would race up to me as I approached a shady corner and insist upon getting their fix of words. I swear those kids would have paid a quarter for the privilege, thus allowing me to become the town's illicit book dealer.

Now, THAT'S an app!!! :-)

Hitch