KF8 on Fire HD6 - Justification & Font Issues

[DreamWriter]

Thanks, Hitch!

Originally Posted by Hitch

OK.

If you're specifying a "body font" that is already on the device, e.g., Caecilia or serif, there's really no reason for the Publisher Font option to be there, other than the Chapter head font.

Yes, I understand that.

[*]When you talk about "body font," are you talking about an actual, real-live EMBEDDED font? For the body? Or are you talking about a "called" font, one that you merely specified as your preference for the body, e.g., Caecilia or Serif?

When I talk about "body font," I mean a "called" font--one that is on the device. I've never used embedded fonts for the main text--only for chapters, headings, etc.

For example, I may have this in the KF8 CSS:

body {font-family:"Caecilia", serif;} OR body {font-family:"Bookerly", "Caecilia", serif;} OR simply body {font-family:serif;}.

The specified font is displayed for the main text when I sideload the Kindlegen-created mobi onto my Fire HD6 (when viewed with Publisher Font selected). If I upload that same mobi file to KDP, those specified fonts are no longer displayed in the purchased book because, despite the fact that there are embedded fonts for chapters, etc., the Publisher Font option is no longer there after publication. And the sideloaded mobis don't have auto-hyphenation, but my recently published books do after that same mobi was uploaded to KDP, converted/processed, and published.

Before February, none of my four e-books had fonts specified in CSS for body. They all had embedded fonts for chapters, etc. In those earlier uploads, the purchased books had the Publisher Font option, none had auto-hyphenation, and the main text of the published book used the same unidentified serif font that I see in the two Amazon-imprint books I mentioned in my last post, which is unlike any in the Fire HD6 font selection menu. In recent uploads, whether I have main text (body) font specified or not, I see no Publisher Font option after publication, even when there is an embedded font for chapters. And there's that pesky auto-hyphenation.

[*]If I understand you that the Chapter fonts are coming through "just fine," is this on all the versions? The Step-6 version AND the published version, or do you mean, it works on the Step6 version, and not on the for-sale version?

Yes, the embedded Chapter fonts come through fine. I've never had a problem with those displaying in any version, either sideloaded mobi test files or the for-sale e-book.

[*] When you change fonts on the purchased version, does the Chapter-head font remain as you set it, with an Embedded font? Is that right?

Yes, the embedded Chapter fonts always stay the same, even when I change fonts on the device. This was true in the past and still works that way now.

[*] If the answer to the last two bulleted items is yes--that the chapter-head embedded font is remaining, as specified, regardless, and the called, but NOT embedded body font is changeable, that's actually fairly good. There's really no reason for them to leave a serif or Caecilia "called" font; that's the default. Perhaps the fact that you've called a default is why it's being stripped?

Yes, it is good that the body font is changeable; that's the way I want it. But I'd like my books to have the Publisher Font option, as they did before February. The Publisher Font option IS in the mobi file I upload to KDP; everything displays perfectly on my Fire HD6 when I sideload the Kindlegen-created mobi to the device! Something happens to the file after I upload to KDP.

Here's an example: I uploaded an "experimental" version of Lotto: Blood Money on March 12 (I've uploaded two versions since then). In the March 12 version, I had an embedded font for the chapters, etc., and this in the KF8 CSS for main text:

body {font-family:"Caecilia", serif;}

I had that version of the book pushed to my Amazon account by Kindle CS since I had purchased it several years ago. The chapter font looks as I intended. The main text displays with whatever font I used in the last book I read. There is no Publisher Font option on Fire HD6. Why?

[Hitch]

I think I'm not communicating well.

The "Publisher Font" option, previously, had nothing to do with whatever font calls you were making to the software/firmware. It was only there because you had embedded a font--ANY font--for any use. In your case, the Chapter heads. That option had nothing to do with whatever you were doing for the body, as the Publisher Font option only appeared for embedded fonts.

When you say this:

But I'd like my books to have the Publisher Font option, as they did before February. The Publisher Font option IS in the mobi file I upload to KDP; everything displays perfectly on my Fire HD6 when I sideload the Kindlegen-created mobi to the device! Something happens to the file after I upload to KDP.

...it's as though you think that this has something to do with the non-existent body font. It doesn't and didn't. It had to do with that other font that you'd embedded for the Chapter heads. That's the only reason that PF ever showed up. You could set an on-device body font from now until hell froze over, and PF would never show up as an option. If you'd embedded a "symbols" font, for example, for a fleuron, it would show up, even though no letters/words, etc., in the book would have been affected.

Whatever is going on with hyphenation and the 6", it's unrelated to that, certainly in this particular case.

Hitch

[DreamWriter]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I think I'm not communicating well.

And I know that I am not communicating effectively. I'm tired of dealing with these e-book issues (I've been troubleshooting for over a month!) and I'm hot (it's 90 degrees here today).

The "Publisher Font" option, previously, had nothing to do with whatever font calls you were making to the software/firmware. It was only there because you had embedded a font--ANY font--for any use. In your case, the Chapter heads. That option had nothing to do with whatever you were doing for the body, as the Publisher Font option only appeared for embedded fonts.

When you say this:


...it's as though you think that this has something to do with the non-existent body font. It doesn't and didn't. It had to do with that other font that you'd embedded for the Chapter heads. That's the only reason that PF ever showed up. You could set an on-device body font from now until hell froze over, and PF would never show up as an option. If you'd embedded a "symbols" font, for example, for a fleuron, it would show up, even though no letters/words, etc., in the book would have been affected.

Yes, I understand everything quoted above. Actually, I never disagreed with any of that. All I want to know is why the Publisher Font option is not available now on Fire HD6, when I'm still using an embedded font for chapters? The Publisher Font option was there in earlier published books and it is still there when I sideload recent mobis to Fire HD6. Now it's gone once the book is published. Shouldn't that option be in the published e-book that has an embedded chapter font, regardless of whether main text, device-available fonts were "called" or not?

This was meant to be an aside... When there is no body font specified, the published book now displays whichever font was last used on the device. Before, when no body font was specified, there was a Publisher Font option (because of the embedded chapter font). If that was selected, an unidentified serif font (unlike any in the device's font menu) was displayed for paragraph text--the same font that I see when Publisher Font is selected in the two Amazon-imprint books mentioned a few posts up.

To summarize, this is the behavior I've noticed in uploads since early/mid-February:

• There is no longer a Publisher Font option, when there was before, regardless of whether a "body" font was called or not. The embedded chapter font has always been there--then and now. Shouldn't that enable Publisher Font in the menu?
  
• My four e-books uploaded numerous times within the last month have auto-hyphenation. They didn't before.

You don't think those changes may be related? Anyone else?

[dgatwood]

Might be the now infamous KDP font stripping issues. They can be downright miserable to work around, but it can be done.

The link above gives a few rules that work for most folks. If they don't work for you, then my recommendation is to start by ripping out about half of your stylesheet at a time (but not the font parts) and seeing if a test book shows up with fonts in the online previewer. If the fonts are still gone, put that half back, and delete the other half (but not the font parts). Continue to remove half of half, half of half of half, and so on, until you narrow it down to a handful of rules that cause the problem, and take whatever actions are needed to avoid those problem bits.

[DreamWriter]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

Might be the now infamous KDP font stripping issues. They can be downright miserable to work around, but it can be done.

The link above gives a few rules that work for most folks. If they don't work for you, then my recommendation is to start by ripping out about half of your stylesheet at a time (but not the font parts) and seeing if a test book shows up with fonts in the online previewer. If the fonts are still gone, put that half back, and delete the other half (but not the font parts). Continue to remove half of half, half of half of half, and so on, until you narrow it down to a handful of rules that cause the problem, and take whatever actions are needed to avoid those problem bits.

Thanks for the link! I read that thread a few weeks ago when I was researching my font/auto-hyphenation problems. I just re-read it more carefully.

Embedded fonts, currently used only for chapter titles and headings in three of my e-books, are never stripped out by KDP. There's been no problem with that, now or in the past. The embedded fonts are present in the for-sale books and downloadable samples.

What I don't understand is why the Publisher Font option in the Fire HD6 drop-down fonts menu is no longer showing in these books after publication. Shouldn't it be there when there's an embedded font? It IS there when I sideload my Kindlegen-created mobi to Fire HD6. (This same mobi is the one I upload to KDP.) Why would the Publisher Font option not be in the published e-book now? It used to be in my e-books...before all this auto-hyphenation nonsense started a month or so ago.

[Notjohn]

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but wouldn't the obvious and easy solution be to stop embedding / calling for fonts?

I see embedded fonts and images used as sorts all the time on books from mainstream publishers. They rarely or never add anything of value to the book, and often enough they cause problems. (On that Gemini freebie you mentioned, I see that changes in scene are indicated by three bullets in a row, provided by a small rectangular image. Of course the image shows as white on the beige background of my iPhone--which I use for reading before the opera begins, so I want it muted in appearance as well as in sound--which looks odd a bit ugly.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but wouldn't the obvious and easy solution be to stop embedding / calling for fonts?

I see embedded fonts and images used as sorts all the time on books from mainstream publishers. They rarely or never add anything of value to the book, and often enough they cause problems. (On that Gemini freebie you mentioned, I see that changes in scene are indicated by three bullets in a row, provided by a small rectangular image. Of course the image shows as white on the beige background of my iPhone--which I use for reading before the opera begins, so I want it muted in appearance as well as in sound--which looks odd a bit ugly.)

NJ:

His biggest issue is the hyphenation problem, which is utterly unrelated, as near as we can all tell, to embedded fonts. He's used two various fonts for his chapter heads (solely), and the body font is what's hyphenating (peculiarly), which is the issue. As he's not using any font a'tall for the body (unless we count that he's set the body to "serif"), I think we can...

Does anyone know if the 3 other books, in which the bizarro-world hyphenation was noted:

1. Have ANY type of embedded font, even just for a fleuron, or,
2. Are "calling" one of the device fonts?
3. While we're at it, Dreamwriter, have you tried uploading the files sans ANY fonts (chapter or otherwise) or font calls at all? Just letting it default to good ol, good ol Caecilia? Has that experiment been attempted?

BTW, NJ: I don't necessarily agree that embedded fonts add nothing or little at all. While, were I building my own book, I'd probably not include an embedded body font, I think that I'd hold up a lot of the books that we've done, against "Default-plain-jane" any day. Caecilia is a perfectly readable font (Wolfie, if you're reading this, no arguments, please, let's not get off on a tangent), but elegance can be its own reward. Print layout is an ART, not only for the purpose of visual feasting, but for ease on the eyeballs; people rarely realize that the reason that they can read a book with pleasure is because the fonts and pages, etc., are carefully and specially designed for just that purpose. Anyone who has never worked on real page layout--using textblock proportions--doesn't appreciate just how complex it is to make a page "read easy."

Even something unrelated to the readability of the body--a simple chapter head--can add immeasurably to the flair and essence of a book, and the page that sustains it.

Hitch

[cybmole]

Originally Posted by Hitch

NJ:



Does anyone know if the 3 other books, in which the bizarro-world hyphenation was noted:
[LIST=1][*]Have ANY type of embedded font, even just for a fleuron, or,[*]Are "calling" one of the device fonts?
Hitch

well looking at the azw for tube riders in calibre editor, it says there are no fonts! . now I don't usually use that, I'm a sigil user, so maybe I am misreading or misunderstanding.
but that book has only a minimal style sheet, one huge part0000html for the whole book, and styling applied in-line within every para. e.g.

<p style="margin:0.00% 0.00%; text-indent:1.5em; text-align:justify; widows:0; orphans:0"><span style=" font-size:1.0rem">She put her hands on his cheeks and pulled his face towards her. ‘Not anymore,’ she said, and kissed him. ‘Not anymore.’</span></p>

seems to prove that hyphenation is separate issue to fonts

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by cybmole

well looking at the azw for tube riders in calibre editor, it says there are no fonts! . now I don't usually use that, I'm a sigil user, so maybe I am misreading or misunderstanding.
but that book has only a minimal style sheet, one huge part0000html for the whole book, and styling applied in-line within every para. e.g.

<p style="margin:0.00% 0.00%; text-indent:1.5em; text-align:justify; widows:0; orphans:0"><span style=" font-size:1.0rem">She put her hands on his cheeks and pulled his face towards her. ‘Not anymore,’ she said, and kissed him. ‘Not anymore.’</span></p>

seems to prove that hyphenation is separate issue to fonts

Cyb:

If there are fonts, they will be present in a folder for fonts, in the OEBPS folder. At least, that's where they should be.

There's no stylesheet? Or rather, a nearly non-existent one? You see nothing that sets a font in that? e.g., font-family: serif, or any such?

Hitch

[cybmole]

That is correct, but Feel free to Take a look yourself. it is free book, at amazon, when I "bought" it anyway tube riders volume 1 of a trilogy.

[DreamWriter]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but wouldn't the obvious and easy solution be to stop embedding / calling for fonts?

I see embedded fonts and images used as sorts all the time on books from mainstream publishers. They rarely or never add anything of value to the book, and often enough they cause problems. (On that Gemini freebie you mentioned, I see that changes in scene are indicated by three bullets in a row, provided by a small rectangular image. Of course the image shows as white on the beige background of my iPhone--which I use for reading before the opera begins, so I want it muted in appearance as well as in sound--which looks odd a bit ugly.)

Personally, as a reader, I appreciate those extra touches in e-books, but I'm sure that many readers don't mind if the formatting is basic. If KDP doesn't come up with anything to resolve the issues I'm having soon, I'll try it!

Does anyone know if the 3 other books, in which the bizarro-world hyphenation was noted:

1. Have ANY type of embedded font, even just for a fleuron, or,
2. Are "calling" one of the device fonts?

Thanks so much, Hitch (and everyone else!) for sticking with me thus far. I know that my attempts to be thorough have had the opposite effect sometimes and made my long posts difficult to understand.

I'm not sure which three e-books you're referring to, but here's what I see on Fire HD6 for several auto-hyphenated e-books I've noticed (I didn't "deconstruct" the actual files, though):

The Gemini Effect (47North, pre-order/Kindle First selection, future publish date April 1, 2015) - appears to have an embedded title/chapter font; there is no Publisher Font option in the menu, so not sure about paragraph font coding (the paragraphs font can be changed, though)

The Tube Riders #1 (originally published 2012, not sure if updated since) - I don't see embedded fonts

The Catalyst (originally published 2012, not sure when updated - KBoards thread re: author receiving a KDP quality notice in early 2013 about "excessive hyphenation"; auto-hyphens are present on Fire HD6) - I don't see embedded fonts in the sample

Diabetics Behaving Badly: Confessions of a Type 2 Insulin Junkie (originally published 2014, not sure if updated since) - I don't see embedded fonts in the sample

[*]While we're at it, Dreamwriter, have you tried uploading the files sans ANY fonts (chapter or otherwise) or font calls at all? Just letting it default to good ol, good ol Caecilia? Has that experiment been attempted?

No, but that is on my list of "things to try." The closest I've come to that is in the current version of Last Mulligan, uploaded to KDP on March 1, which has NO embedded fonts. Here is the relevant KF8 CSS for that book:

body
  {font-family:serif;
  font-weight:normal;}

div.title
  {margin:0;
  text-indent:0;
  text-align:center;
  font-family:"Helvetica", sans-serif;
  font-size:1.5em;}

div.chapter
  {margin-top:1em;
  margin-bottom:0;
  margin-left:0;
  margin-right:0;
  padding-bottom:.3em;
  text-align:center;
  text-indent:0;
  font-family:"Helvetica", sans-serif;
  font-size:1.5em;}

p
  {margin:0;
  text-indent:5%;}

My other three books currently have embedded fonts for chapters/titles and no called fonts specified at all in either body or p (paragraph) CSS. All four e-books have displayed auto-hyphenation on my Fire HD6 in every upload since early/mid-February. Before that time, they didn't.

* * *

My main goal right now is to figure out why the SAME Lotto: Blood Money file uploaded on different dates, 1-30-15 and 3-9-15, looks so different after publication on Fire HD6. The one uploaded on 3-9-15 (right screenshot, below) has auto-hyphenation and the Publisher Font menu option is gone on Fire HD6. Since these two problems are happening with ALL of my e-books in uploads since early/mid-February, I thought the two issues may be related somehow.

The two screenshots below were taken on my Fire HD6 on 3-9-15. The one on the left is the version published on 1-30-15. I took the screenshot on the right after Kindle CS pushed the new (3-9-15) version to my device later that same day. The file uploaded to KDP was the SAME for both versions; the only difference is the date the file was uploaded.

[image links broken]

You can see the differences in those after-publication screenshots: the earlier version has no auto-hyphenation; the later one does. Also, the Publisher Font menu option WAS in the earlier version, but not the later upload. The text is darker in the 3-9-15 published book, too.

Both uploaded files had exactly the same CSS and HTML, with an embedded font for chapters/titles and no font specified for main text (body or paragraphs) in KF8 CSS. The Kindlegen-created mobi looks exactly like the 1-30-15 version when sideloaded to my Fire--NO auto-hyphenation or the other weirdness I've observed on Fire HD6 in all my published e-books uploaded after early/mid-February.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

BTW, NJ: I don't necessarily agree that embedded fonts add nothing or little at all. While, were I building my own book, I'd probably not include an embedded body font, I think that I'd hold up a lot of the books that we've done, against "Default-plain-jane" any day. Caecilia is a perfectly readable font (Wolfie, if you're reading this, no arguments, please, let's not get off on a tangent), but elegance can be its own reward. Print layout is an ART, not only for the purpose of visual feasting, but for ease on the eyeballs; people rarely realize that the reason that they can read a book with pleasure is because the fonts and pages, etc., are carefully and specially designed for just that purpose. Anyone who has never worked on real page layout--using textblock proportions--doesn't appreciate just how complex it is to make a page "read easy."

Even something unrelated to the readability of the body--a simple chapter head--can add immeasurably to the flair and essence of a book, and the page that sustains it.

Hitch

A good example of a book that is helped by embedded fonts is 11/22/63. I think it's well done and has a good look to it.

Hitch, what body font do you like when reading an eBook on eInk if you get to have your choice?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DreamWriter

body
  {font-family:serif;
  font-weight:normal;}

div.title
  {margin:0;
  text-indent:0;
  text-align:center;
  font-family:"Helvetica", sans-serif;
  font-size:1.5em;}

div.chapter
  {margin-top:1em;
  margin-bottom:0;
  margin-left:0;
  margin-right:0;
  padding-bottom:.3em;
  text-align:center;
  text-indent:0;
  font-family:"Helvetica", sans-serif;
  font-size:1.5em;}

p
  {margin:0;
  text-indent:5%;}

I have an issue here with the text indent being 5%. That's 5% of the screen. So on different devices, you get different indents. On a Kindle DX, or the 10" Kindle Fire, you get rather overly large indents. It's bets to specify the indent in em. I use 1.2em and that works well and does not change based on the screen size.


My other three books currently have embedded fonts for chapters/titles and no called fonts specified at all in either body or p (paragraph) CSS. All four e-books have displayed auto-hyphenation on my Fire HD6 in every upload since early/mid-February. Before that time, they didn't.

* * *

My main goal right now is to figure out why the SAME Lotto: Blood Money file uploaded on different dates, 1-30-15 and 3-9-15, looks so different after publication on Fire HD6. The one uploaded on 3-9-15 (right screenshot, below) has auto-hyphenation and the Publisher Font menu option is gone on Fire HD6. Since these two problems are happening with ALL of my e-books in uploads since early/mid-February, I thought the two issues may be related somehow.

You can see the differences in those after-publication screenshots: the earlier version has no auto-hyphenation; the later one does. Also, the Publisher Font menu option WAS in the earlier version, but not the later upload. The text is darker in the 3-9-15 published book, too.

Both uploaded files had exactly the same CSS and HTML, with an embedded font for chapters/titles and no font specified for main text (body or paragraphs) in KF8 CSS. The Kindlegen-created mobi looks exactly like the 1-30-15 version when sideloaded to my Fire--NO auto-hyphenation or the other weirdness I've observed on Fire HD6 in all my published e-books uploaded after early/mid-February.

Personally, I like the 03/09/2015 version better. Even if the font weight was the same, I prefer the hyphens. Since getting the Kobo Aura H2O with has hyphenation support, I rarely see whide gaps in lines and the H2O does not go crazy hyphenating. The worst Reader is the B&B nook STR and later Readers as they really do go crazy.

Usually there is some way to tell the rendering program not to hyphenate. This is a bunch of different commands you can use to try to turn off hyphenation if that's what you want.

body {
-epub-hyphens: none;
adobe-hyphenate: none;
-webkit-hyphens: none;
-moz-hyphens: none;
hyphens: none;
}

I would not bother with the first two as those are for ADE. But give the last three a go and see what happens.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A good example of a book that is helped by embedded fonts is 11/22/63. I think it's well done and has a good look to it.

Hitch, what body font do you like when reading an eBook on eInk if you get to have your choice?

Don't laugh, but it varies. I use good ol' TNR for almost anything non-fiction; I like the easy clarity of the font. I prefer Trebuchet (or Futura on the Voyage), for non-fiction that is fantastical in nature, like Harry Potter-type books, or supernatural alternate realities. (The exception being Harry Dresden. No, I don't know why; I use Bookman Antiqua for that Harry.) I use Baserville for mysteries. ;-)

I know, it's weird.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I have an issue here with the text indent being 5%. That's 5% of the screen. So on different devices, you get different indents. On a Kindle DX, or the 10" Kindle Fire, you get rather overly large indents. It's bets to specify the indent in em. I use 1.2em and that works well and does not change based on the screen size.


Personally, I like the 03/09/2015 version better. Even if the font weight was the same, I prefer the hyphens. Since getting the Kobo Aura H2O with has hyphenation support, I rarely see whide gaps in lines and the H2O does not go crazy hyphenating. The worst Reader is the B&B nook STR and later Readers as they really do go crazy.

Usually there is some way to tell the rendering program not to hyphenate. This is a bunch of different commands you can use to try to turn off hyphenation if that's what you want.

body {
-epub-hyphens: none;
adobe-hyphenate: none;
-webkit-hyphens: none;
-moz-hyphens: none;
hyphens: none;
}

I would not bother with the first two as those are for ADE. But give the last three a go and see what happens.

I have to confess, I'm not wild about the 5%, either.

Wolfie, dearest, I think that his issue isn't the correct hyphenation; it's that (if you go back in the thread) his hyphenation seems bizarrely wrong, words being incorrectly hyphenated hither and yon. A LOT. Also, he doesn't care for the darker, heavier font weight. That bothers me somewhat less than it does him.

Dreamwriter:

I really think you ought to try one with no font calls AT ALL. No embedded font, no nuthin', and see what happens. We have to start real bracket-navigation troubleshooting, and if we can determine that a "naked" book does NOT have the bizarro-world hyphenation--at least it gives a place to start. Yes, I know what you're thinking--it's a crapload of time and testing, and only YOU can do it (as the rest of we wonks don't have published books to "play" with). But if it were me, I'd:

1. Try a book with NO font specfiied, at all. No called fonts, no embeds.
2. If that makes hyphenation issues go bye-bye, then I'd do one with "font-family:serif," and naught else.
3. Then see if THAT works correctly.
4. Then I'd do the body font call--:garamond, serif.
5. Rinse, repeat.
6. Finally, then, I'd try firstly calling a sans-serif for the chapter head, from the firmware; and then, back to embedding.

Obviously, something has changed at the KDP. But we don't have a real "control." We have too many variables. You haven't tried a really controlled experiment, narrowing your issues down to one thing at a time. You have font calls in the body; you have fonts embedded; you have a lot going on, when you think about it. And you have multiple symptoms, too--you have hyphenation, BAD hyphenation, a darker font, AND no "publisher font" option.

That's too many moving parts. The only way forward is, sadly, the hard way. That's to start at the bottom, and work your way up and out. You have to start with a naked file, no "serif," no nothing. See what result that gets. I don't see any other way around it, I really don't.

Hitch