Shades of 1984

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Certainly, and I agree with you. I was simply responding to your statement that "You're required to keep your DRMed books in Amazon's or B&N's cloud". There are certainly many benefits to keeping your books in the Cloud, but you're not actually required to do so.

Of course, there is no point keeping backups of DRM'd books from your kindle, the only reason for the backup is if your kindle dies, at which point your backup becomes unusable anyway. So Greg is right, your backup has to be Amazon's cloud (Assuming the DRM is staying in place).

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Of course, there is no point keeping backups of DRM'd books from your kindle, the only reason for the backup is if your kindle dies, at which point your backup becomes unusable anyway. So Greg is right, your backup has to be Amazon's cloud (Assuming the DRM is staying in place).

Death of the device is not the ONLY reason to keep backups (DRMed or otherwise). It's just the only reason you (and maybe others) would do it. If Amazon disappeared (or its cloud feature went away/changed) or you moved somewhere where your internet coverage was spotty at best, you could still read those DRMed books indefinitely. If you accidentally deleted the books from your kindle, you could put them right back on again--regardless if Amazon's cloud or the internet were currently available. For the life of the device, those DRMed files are readable by it.

Granted, I don't back up DRMed books myself, but that's no reason for me to assume nobody does (or to assume that death of the device is the sole reason reason somene might want to keep backups). Readable backups are readable backups. If it saves someone a trip to a free wifi hotspot someday, who am I to say it wasn't a good reason for keeping them around?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Is this something new? Because I've seen time and again where an author or publisher has republished a book under the same title with a different ASIN while pulling the old one from active sale and it still being available to previous buyers.

GAH. No wonder everyone is confused. I'm meant that I am not supposed to change the title for the same book, not that I HAVE to change the title!

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Happy to know you didn't change the product after all.

I have no problem with changing the price -- changing the product is Bad, because for example Amazon might silently update it.

What is the problem with changing the title? I don't see it as changing anything -- it is offering a new product (while pulling an old one) -- naturally it will have a different title.

Books 1 & 2 of ____ vs The Complete Trilogy -- those are different products and should reflect as much -- and not leave it to the retailer to accidentally update peoples' books.

Updating a book is MEANT for fixing spelling/formatting errors, not pulling switcharoos and changing the product. If I select manually to update a book from http://amzn.com/myk, I expect to get a book that has been edited for typos (code or text), I would be completely blindsided by having stories from an omnibus simply disappear.

The problem with changing the title is that authors were pulling books, changing the title and making small changes to the book itself and getting a NEW listing--to leave behind bad reviews. So, for example, if "I wrote a book" had 9 bad reviews complaining about typos, formatting etc, the author could just change the title to: No, I REALLY wrote a book and leave behind the warnings (the author could potentially FIX those problems too, but you get the idea.)

The other thing a new title/same material does is it means if you have purchased the old version--you won't be told that when you see the "new" book with the "New title" and Amazon will essentially let you buy the same product twice.

Sorry for the confusion. I mistyped in my original explanation when I said I had to change the title--what I MEANT was that we are not supposed to change the title because the title is what creates a "new" listing. If you had purchased the original--Ghost Shadow/Executive Affairs and I "relisted" it as "Executive Affairs" it would appear to be a NEW book you did not own. Since Amazon requires I charge 99 cents, you would end up buying material you already had if you were a devoted follower who bought everything I wrote.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

The problem with changing the title is that authors were pulling books, changing the title and making small changes to the book itself and getting a NEW listing--to leave behind bad reviews. So, for example, if "I wrote a book" had 9 bad reviews complaining about typos, formatting etc, the author could just change the title to: No, I REALLY wrote a book and leave behind the warnings (the author could potentially FIX those problems too, but you get the idea.)

The other thing a new title/same material does is it means if you have purchased the old version--you won't be told that when you see the "new" book with the "New title" and Amazon will essentially let you buy the same product twice.

Sorry for the confusion. I mistyped in my original explanation when I said I had to change the title--what I MEANT was that we are not supposed to change the title because the title is what creates a "new" listing. If you had purchased the original--Ghost Shadow/Executive Affairs and I "relisted" it as "Executive Affairs" it would appear to be a NEW book you did not own. Since Amazon requires I charge 99 cents, you would end up buying material you already had if you were a devoted follower who bought everything I wrote.

Ok...this raises more questions, then. How can a textbook create a new listing for new editions, then? Most "new editions" of textbooks are mostly the same as the previous version with maybe one or two new entries.

Shari

[eschwartz]

Simple. Only KDP has rules protecting the customer.

BMB -- thanks for the explanation, it makes more sense now.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by shalym

Ok...this raises more questions, then. How can a textbook create a new listing for new editions, then? Most "new editions" of textbooks are mostly the same as the previous version with maybe one or two new entries.

Shari

I don't know the answer to this, I'm sorry. I can change the edition without it becoming a "New" listing or new book. In fact, I spent too much time debating whether to change the edition when I do a new cover or fix any other issue. For the most part the edition number is fairly meaningless other than for my own tracking because most consumers/readers are not going to know whether they bought edition 2 or 3 or whathaveyou. People on mobilreads are more likely to notice and to have saved pertinent info in Calibre, but that is not the normal customer.

Let's say I change a book and correct typos and ask AMazon to send the new version to those who have asked to get new versions automatically. There isn't even any requirement that I change the edition number (I do, of course. When I added illustrations to Sage, I changed the edition number and asked Amazon to make the change available to those who had it set to receive.)

I think the code is there and helpful for editions, but right now there are no standards. I'm guessing that for textbooks from the big guys they have different arrangements for producing an edition.

And keep in mind that the rules are always changing. I could probably easily change the title and have essentially the same book behind it--until someone reported it to Amazon. They rarely catch things in the publishing process--things like stolen books EVEN by names as big as Ilona Andrews, slip right through. So when I go to publish the next book, who know what will be on the dashboard. After YEARS AND YEARS Amazon finally added the ability to list series with a series number and series name. YEARS, it took.

[odamizu]

@BearMountainBooks: At this point I'm pretty confused about what you did or did not do, and can or cannot do, so I'm going to withdraw all comments made to you and extend my apologies for anything I misunderstood.

Going back to the OP, I think what happened was unethical and that BN (the bookseller in question) should make amends once made aware of the situation.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by odamizu

@BearMountainBooks: At this point I'm pretty confused about what you did or did not do, and can or cannot do, so I'm going to withdraw all comments made to you and extend my apologies for anything I misunderstood.

Going back to the OP, I think what happened was unethical and that BN (the bookseller in question) should make amends once made aware of the situation.

My fault! I didn't explain it very well (and, in fact, blew it totally out the gate) and really, my only point was that the author may have had a particular reason for doing what he did--and it may not be obvious to the customer. There are rules all over the place for what we are supposed to do and they vary from retailer to retailer. Pricing rules vary as well. In the B&N case, they should make purchases already made available to those who purchased them. There should be an "accept updates" or not at the discretion of the customer.

But B&N isn't particularly customer oriented from what I've seen. They tend to just throw things at the wall and see what sticks. If they have a plan, it keeps changing. I don't know the author in question so I don't know why that author may have decided to change the product. Sometimes in this new world, we're just best-guessing when we make decisions on how to move forward!!!

[theducks]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Yep, I've seen numerous short stories expanded into novels (generally to their detriment).

2001 came from the short story The Sentinental
Beggars in Spain by Nancy Kress was a short story which became a series of novels
etc.
etc.

I have seen many a short turn into a multi book Series
Venus Prime
Alpha and the Omega
...

The 'has no ISBN' must be the blocking condition as Bigger Publisher Houses are always releasing Omnibus.

What about Collections? Sometimes the same story appears more than once in 'collections', or Anthologies

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by theducks

I have seen many a short turn into a multi book Series
Venus Prime
Alpha and the Omega
...

The 'has no ISBN' must be the blocking condition as Bigger Publisher Houses are always releasing Omnibus.

What about Collections? Sometimes the same story appears more than once in 'collections', or Anthologies

They do, but I can tell you that when an indie tries this sort of thing, we get lambasted as though we single-handedly thought up the idea of selling the same story in two different places solely to bilk the reader. Okay, okay, perhaps I'm showing a bit of bitterness there.

I know a few authors (indie) who have sold shorts in more than one place, but usually it is because they sold the story (or donated it to a charity antho) and then after a period resold it or gave it away as a marketing tool. I have avoided doing this because it just doesn't seem to go over well. There's also a cost associated with doing a cover for either a single short story or the appropriate Antho.

I think it's easier to find short stories and novels these days because of the internet so having a story in two places can cause more confusion than in the past.