DRM removal or piracy? - Page 3

cybmole · 02-19-2015, 06:22 AM

> Harry
i completely agree, with all you said.

my gripe is only with how one tool is being praised to the heavens for "ethical" coding while another similar app is being demonized.

Yet in the case of the "other" tool, whose name shall not be spoken, i'ts primary use is to "de-drm" an app which you have purchased onto your device. which makes for a roughy equivalent scenario.
When I tried it out, I used it ONLY on my downloads from google store & I claim that's what 99% of it's others users do. It will not AFAIK magically turn a demo app into a full version, but it did ( when I had it) make my news apps serve up 100% news, not 10% adverts.

as for the alleged sites from which you can download an unedited but not paid for app & then apply the tool to, that's a really far fetched scenario in my view.
If they do exist they are well hidden; if I search for an app to steal, what google offers is places from which to download it pre-hacked ( & probably pre-infected ), NOT places from which I would need to download & patch myself.

it seems from a quick test that most of the "alternative store" links which Google finds just send you back to google play store anyway ( I assume for commission)

HarryT · 02-19-2015, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

Yet in the case of the "other" tool, whose name shall not be spoken, i'ts primary use is to "de-drm" an app which you have purchased onto your device. which makes for a roughy equivalent scenario.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, never having used it, but I thought that the difference was that it would remove the licence checks regardless of whether or not you'd bought the app, whereas Alf's tools will only work if you have legitimate access to the book at the time that you remove the DRM. Is that not the case?

chaley · 02-19-2015, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

Yet in the case of the "other" tool, whose name shall not be spoken, i'ts primary use is to "de-drm" an app which you have purchased onto your device. which makes for a roughy equivalent scenario.

No its prime use is to de-drm apps you did not purchase. I would bet you that most of the cracked versions you found were cracked with this app or the other one like it that I also won't name.

Quote:

as for the alleged sites from which you can download an unedited but not paid for app & then apply the tool to, that's a really far fetched scenario in my view.
If they do exist they are well hidden; if I search for an app to steal, what google offers is places from which to download it pre-hacked ( & probably pre-infected ), NOT places from which I would need to download & patch myself.

it seems from a quick test that most of the "alternative store" links which Google finds just send you back to google play store anyway ( I assume for commission)

I searched for the latest version of CC. Of the top 6 results, one was google play and 5 were alternate sites. Of those 5, two didn't work and 3 gave me an APK identical to the one on google play. Download that APK and apply the pirate tool and voila, days (perhaps hours) after a new CC release you are running a pirated version.

cybmole · 02-19-2015, 06:56 AM

>Harry, I think you are right, ( I only trialled it & no longer have it) but there is no obvious way to get a paid for app onto your device anyway, without buying it from google. that's the gist of my argument.
you can't download a paid for app apk from google to pc & there's no concept of download now, pay later to get one onto your device. I always thought ( though I am not an android expert) that google locked in the basic licence permissions when it delivers the app, and that those keys are then inaccessible to the average user.
I am not asking for a road map of how to workaround that, just saying that most people won't get further than seeing the basic choice of buy from play or steal via torrent sites, & in that latter case you don't need the tool 'cos it has been pre-applied.

i think we've discussed this to death already, actually.
the suggested ruling of banning it from app specific sub forums like Chaley's seemed sensible.

PS I see that the patcher in question has a facebook support page! so i'ts not exactly being driven underground at present. I guess google sees it as a minor irritant not a serious revenue threat. It would not suprise me to see google syndicated ads placed on the actual downlaod site either !

cybmole · 02-19-2015, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaley

...3 gave me an APK identical to the one on google play. .

100% identical and not pre-cracked - that does suprise me.

did you check checksums etc...

you can also upload what you found to here for virus scans etc
http://apkscan.nviso.be/

and when I tested that site it found all sorts of nasties pre-installed in test downloads.

I assume the sites you found they are based in the sort of jurisdictions that will ignore a polite request from you to remove your IP ?.

and their income must be from advertising, if they don't charge for downloads.
I wonder who advertises there, knowingly, or unknowingly and who facilitates that ( answers beginning with G.... )

chaley · 02-19-2015, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

100% identical and not pre-cracked - that does suprise me.

did you check checksums etc...

I did a binary compare with the official released APK, which I happen to have.

Quote:

and when I tested that site it found all sorts of nasties pre-installed in test downloads.

This is one reason I like some of the cracked versions. It gives me pleasure to know that someone trying to steal software might brick their phone.

Quote:

I assume the sites you found they are based in the sort of jurisdictions that will ignore a polite request from you to remove your IP ?.

This is a game of whack-a-mole. Some sites will remove IP, most ignore me. All the sites that will remove a file will put it back as soon as another user uploads it. For a while I tried, but the amount of time it took only to lose in the end defeated me.

Quote:

and their income must be from advertising, if they don't charge for downloads.
I wonder who advertises there, knowingly, or unknowingly and who facilitates that ( answers beginning with G.... )

I have no idea how they make money. Delivering APK files that won't run because they still contain license checks doesn't seem to be a great business proposition. Your premise that it is ads seems reasonable.

tubemonkey · 02-19-2015, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

...whereas Alf's tools will only work if you have legitimate access to the book at the time that you remove the DRM. Is that not the case?

Please define legitimate access. Could that definition also include Kindle Unlimited, Scribd, Oyster, and library books?

HarryT · 02-19-2015, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Please define legitimate access. Could that definition also include Kindle Unlimited, Scribd, Oyster, and library books?

I think you can work out for yourself what it means if you really try hard. We all know what it's acceptable or not to do with ebooks, I believe.

tubemonkey · 02-19-2015, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think you can work out for yourself what it means if you really try hard. We all know what it's acceptable or not to do with ebooks, I believe.

I only questioned it because you used the term "legitimate access" instead of the correct term, "owned". There's a huge difference between those terms and I was seeking clarification.

cybmole · 02-19-2015, 02:54 PM

Read the thread, all answers are therein already.
And this thread could end now. All p.o.v have been well aired

EowynCarter · 02-19-2015, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaley

Neither Amazon nor Google make any effort at all to stop piracy.
My position is clear. Fair use of something I purchased is very different from using something I did not purchase. If I go to a torrent site and download a book then I am stealing the book. If I go to some site and download an APK then process it with this tool then I am stealing software.

Agree.

There is one big differance -> you can only get the book with DRM after purchasing it.
Not the case with APKs.

murg · 02-19-2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please correct me if I'm wrong, never having used it, but I thought that the difference was that it would remove the licence checks regardless of whether or not you'd bought the app, whereas Alf's tools will only work if you have legitimate access to the book at the time that you remove the DRM. Is that not the case?

You are incorrect.

Alf's tools will only work if you have legitimate access to the book at the time that you downloaded it.

You can lose legal access to the book and then remove the DRM.

STrucks · 02-20-2015, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

I only questioned it because you used the term "legitimate access" instead of the correct term, "owned". There's a huge difference between those terms and I was seeking clarification.

And the answer is yes. It does include Kindle Unlimited, etc. But owned or not, you do have legitimate access to those books. Any DRM removal tool can be used for illegal purposes, as I'm sure Alf's is quite regularly.

EowynCarter · 02-20-2015, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STrucks

And the answer is yes. It does include Kindle Unlimited, etc. Any DRM removal tool can be used for illegal purposes, as I'm sure Alf's is quite regularly.

Aren't the DRM useed there an other kind of drm ? it's easy there, as internet is required anyway, to change the DRM if it gets cracked. Whereas changing adept would be a major pain.

cybmole · 02-20-2015, 03:01 AM

i used it, quasi-legally, during my kindle unlimited trial, in that I converted to epub, read on tablet, then deleted from tablet & returned books.
I did not stay with KU though; after reading some truly awful indie "best sellers", I decided that quality was lacking & cancelled.
Kindle prime , however, mostly uses a different DRM that is immune to tools, so I have to read those in the native kindle fire reader. No big deal as I''m unlikely to renew prime at current prices, when my year runs out.
Butt that fact that amazon have more than one DRM shows they could protect KU if they needed to ( though they would then have to turn off read via Kindle for PC/Mac/... as the Kindle prime scheme excludes those.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
drm removal	john b	Introduce Yourself	5	04-07-2013 07:08 AM
Need help in DRM removal.	bagwell	PDF	1	03-11-2011 09:24 AM
Please Help! DRM Removal!	Peruka	Reading and Management	3	01-16-2011 10:16 AM

02-19-2015, 06:22 AM	#31
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	> Harry i completely agree, with all you said. my gripe is only with how one tool is being praised to the heavens for "ethical" coding while another similar app is being demonized. Yet in the case of the "other" tool, whose name shall not be spoken, i'ts primary use is to "de-drm" an app which you have purchased onto your device. which makes for a roughy equivalent scenario. When I tried it out, I used it ONLY on my downloads from google store & I claim that's what 99% of it's others users do. It will not AFAIK magically turn a demo app into a full version, but it did ( when I had it) make my news apps serve up 100% news, not 10% adverts. as for the alleged sites from which you can download an unedited but not paid for app & then apply the tool to, that's a really far fetched scenario in my view. If they do exist they are well hidden; if I search for an app to steal, what google offers is places from which to download it pre-hacked ( & probably pre-infected ), NOT places from which I would need to download & patch myself. it seems from a quick test that most of the "alternative store" links which Google finds just send you back to google play store anyway ( I assume for commission)

02-19-2015, 06:56 AM	#34
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	>Harry, I think you are right, ( I only trialled it & no longer have it) but there is no obvious way to get a paid for app onto your device anyway, without buying it from google. that's the gist of my argument. you can't download a paid for app apk from google to pc & there's no concept of download now, pay later to get one onto your device. I always thought ( though I am not an android expert) that google locked in the basic licence permissions when it delivers the app, and that those keys are then inaccessible to the average user. I am not asking for a road map of how to workaround that, just saying that most people won't get further than seeing the basic choice of buy from play or steal via torrent sites, & in that latter case you don't need the tool 'cos it has been pre-applied. i think we've discussed this to death already, actually. the suggested ruling of banning it from app specific sub forums like Chaley's seemed sensible. PS I see that the patcher in question has a facebook support page! so i'ts not exactly being driven underground at present. I guess google sees it as a minor irritant not a serious revenue threat. It would not suprise me to see google syndicated ads placed on the actual downlaod site either !

02-19-2015, 02:54 PM	#40
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	Read the thread, all answers are therein already. And this thread could end now. All p.o.v have been well aired

02-20-2015, 03:01 AM	#45
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	i used it, quasi-legally, during my kindle unlimited trial, in that I converted to epub, read on tablet, then deleted from tablet & returned books. I did not stay with KU though; after reading some truly awful indie "best sellers", I decided that quality was lacking & cancelled. Kindle prime , however, mostly uses a different DRM that is immune to tools, so I have to read those in the native kindle fire reader. No big deal as I''m unlikely to renew prime at current prices, when my year runs out. Butt that fact that amazon have more than one DRM shows they could protect KU if they needed to ( though they would then have to turn off read via Kindle for PC/Mac/... as the Kindle prime scheme excludes those.