Amazon making less than you think - Page 2

DuckieTigger · 02-10-2015, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I will point out that return on investment is _not_ unearned money, any more than the interest that one earns on bonds or savings accounts is unearned money.

That is rubbish. When you buy a bond or leave your money sit in a savings account, you are literally selling / lending out your money short or long term. You are providing a service to the bank / investor so they have cash to burn. And for this service you should be reimbursed, and you are by earning interest. Read, you actually earn it. If you invest in the stock market, you don't earn anything. You are gambling. Plain and simple.

pwalker8 · 02-10-2015, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

That is rubbish. When you buy a bond or leave your money sit in a savings account, you are literally selling / lending out your money short or long term. You are providing a service to the bank / investor so they have cash to burn. And for this service you should be reimbursed, and you are by earning interest. Read, you actually earn it. If you invest in the stock market, you don't earn anything. You are gambling. Plain and simple.

Well, that's certainly a unique definition of earn. Investing, buying bonds and having a savings account are for the most part the same thing. In each case, you give someone else the use of your money with the hopes of getting more back. It's all a gamble. Bonds are defaulted on all the time. Banks fail. I recommend Sowell's Basic Economics to you. It's even in ebook.

DuckieTigger · 02-10-2015, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Well, that's certainly a unique definition of earn. Investing, buying bonds and having a savings account are for the most part the same thing. In each case, you give someone else the use of your money with the hopes of getting more back. It's all a gamble. Bonds are defaulted on all the time. Banks fail. I recommend Sowell's Basic Economics to you. It's even in ebook.

That is a unique definition of gamble. Gambling with a bank and a savings account is a lot less risky than high risk stock market gambling. There is no such thing as the FDIC for stocks. If you chose to pick a bank that has no FDIC insurance, that would be really gambling, I suppose. There is a difference between potential for income (and loss) with stocks and guranteed income with interest from a bond or savings. Sure, when you win you potentially win more with stocks, but also the risk of losing a lot is there too.

pdurrant · 02-10-2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I will point out that return on investment is _not_ unearned money, any more than the interest that one earns on bonds or savings accounts is unearned money.

Unearned money is a strange term that doesn't seem to be used in economics. But if unearned income is what's being meant by unearned money, then return on investments and interest on bonds and savings accounts are prime examples of unearned income.

HarryT · 02-10-2015, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Unearned money is a strange term that doesn't seem to be used in economics. But if unearned income is what's being meant by unearned money, then return on investments and interest on bonds and savings accounts are prime examples of unearned income.

But it's not "unearned". You're providing a service to the company: lending them money. The dividends or interest paid is your payment for the service you're providing. You have earned the money by providing the service.

RHWright · 02-10-2015, 09:29 AM

I think what @pdurrant is pointing out is that, at least in some jurisdictions, there is a legal definition of earned income vs unearned income and they are, often, taxed differently.

Not that investments are "unearned" in the sense of nothing having been done to expect back additional money for the money you have put into play, so to speak.

pdurrant · 02-10-2015, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

But it's not "unearned". You're providing a service to the company: lending them money. The dividends or interest paid is your payment for the service you're providing. You have earned the money by providing the service.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHWright

I think what @pdurrant is pointing out is that, at least in some jurisdictions, there is a legal definition of earned income vs unearned income and they are, often, taxed differently.

Exactly so. There is an economic and legal definition of unearned income. Basically, unearned income is income that you get without having to expend further effort. Earned income is income where one must do work for the income to continue, i.e. do some kind of job and get a salary.

It's not a term related to morals.

HarryT · 02-10-2015, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Exactly so. There is an economic and legal defintiion of unearned income. Basically, unearned income is income that you get without having to expend further effort. Earned income is income where one must do work for the income to continue, i.e. do some kind of job and get a salary.

Thanks for the explanation.

pwalker8 · 02-10-2015, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Exactly so. There is an economic and legal definition of unearned income. Basically, unearned income is income that you get without having to expend further effort. Earned income is income where one must do work for the income to continue, i.e. do some kind of job and get a salary.

It's not a term related to morals.

In the US, there are three different types of income that are taxed at different rates - ordinary income, short term capital gains and long-term capital gains. Short term capital gains is gains on capital assets held for a year or less, while long term capital gains is gains on capital assets held for longer than a year. Short term capital gains is taxed at the same rate as ordinary income, while long term capital gains is taxed at a lower rater. US law does not make a distinction between wages and salaries, interest, dividends, rents, royalties and short term capital gains, all are taxed at the same rate.

The idea of earned verses unearned, is of course, a judgmental notion. It dates back to the early Judeo-Christian scriptures where you were not allowed to charge interest on money. I would point to Niall Ferguson's The Ascent of Money for a full description. For the most part, it is an idea that has fallen on disfavor, given the large percentage of people (in the US, at least) who are now members of the investment class as more and more people move towards 401-K and IRA retirement account rather than pension plans. It is still popular in certain political philosophies.

eschwartz · 02-10-2015, 09:14 PM

Jewish scriptures only forbade/forbids charging interest from fellow Jews, it isn't judgmental about whether or not it was "earned".
Much like you wouldn't charge interest if you lend your brother/sister/son/daughter/etc. some money, so too Jews ==> fellow Jews.

I cannot speak for what Christian scriptures say about it.

Andrew H. · 02-10-2015, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I cannot speak for what Christian scriptures say about it.

They say that Jesus saves.

They don't discuss the interest rate, however.

skinmaan · 02-10-2015, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

They say that Jesus saves.

They don't discuss the interest rate, however.

You should be writing for Dave Ramsey!

eschwartz · 02-10-2015, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

They say that Jesus saves.

They don't discuss the interest rate, however.

rcentros · 02-11-2015, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phogg

Okay.

I will open the flame war (as requested) by pointing out that the Mötley Fool is a bloat ware site full of crappy animated flash advertisements that slow your browser to a crawl.

Exactly. The whole point of Motley Fool seems to be shouting headlines that lead you to lots and lots of ads. They never tire of attack pieces on Samsung, then Apple, then Samsung ... then Apple (for example) -- just to draw in those on both sides. When I see a Motley Fool article (or one of the its seemingly associated websites) I just ignore them. Usually if there is any good information it's because they're stealing from somebody else.

EDIT: In this case the link is not going to the Motley Fool website, but to the Money Magazine -- so it's a little different deal.

rcentros · 02-11-2015, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leebase

Amazon the company can do just fine....but the investors are likely in for a world of hurt.

And yet they stick with them when Amazon's stock prices are up. They strangely have confidence that their investment is worthwhile. Odd, isn't it?

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02-10-2015, 09:29 AM	#21
RHWright Addict Posts: 219 Karma: 2617122 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: North Carolina Device: NOOK ST, Nexus 7	I think what @pdurrant is pointing out is that, at least in some jurisdictions, there is a legal definition of earned income vs unearned income and they are, often, taxed differently. Not that investments are "unearned" in the sense of nothing having been done to expect back additional money for the money you have put into play, so to speak.

02-10-2015, 09:14 PM	#25
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Jewish scriptures only forbade/forbids charging interest from fellow Jews, it isn't judgmental about whether or not it was "earned". Much like you wouldn't charge interest if you lend your brother/sister/son/daughter/etc. some money, so too Jews ==> fellow Jews. I cannot speak for what Christian scriptures say about it.