The Kobo DRM-free epub fiasco

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

From a business perspective I'm not really sure they can do that. Consumers tend to hold retailers responsible for any perceived flaws in purchased goods. What you're proposing sounds too close to "Caveat Emptor" then to any viable retail plan.

Which part are you saying they can't do? They already convert the epub3 to a proprietary format available to their own devices and apps (kepub). And links to download/sideload epub3's (ascm to fulfill with drm or the epub itself if drm-free) are provided by Google Play Books all the time. I've retrieved several epub3s from them. So why is it not feasible for Kobo to provide such a link? Especially when you agree that the "non-power-user" will probably never see/use such a download/sideload option anyway.

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Isn't that what they did? I checked out the page for Karen Memory and no download option is listed. This seems like a clear indicator to me.

Except that when you add the preview/sample for that book to your library (like I did before purchasing), it lists "DRM-Free EPUB" as the download option. Which brings us right back to muddy again.

This is an unfortunate bug that I hope is reported and fixed as soon as possible.

I reported it. CS chose not to address the non-working button at all. They just told me to sync the book to some apparently imaginary Kobo device that I'd already clearly told them I didn't own.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by pssquirrel

You're remembering correctly. My Sony PRS-T2 can pinch-to-zoom images, so Adobe RMSDK-based ereaders definitely are capable of zooming if the ereader-maker bothers to implement it.

Thank you, pssquirrel, I'm not losing my memory, after all . BTW have you gone native in Kindle-world yet or do you still have occasional Sony nostalgia?

[ottdmk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Which part are you saying they can't do? They already convert the epub3 to a proprietary format available to their own devices and apps (kepub). And links to download/sideload epub3's (ascm to fulfill with drm or the epub itself if drm-free) are provided by Google Play Books all the time. I've retrieved several epub3s from them. So why is it not feasible for Kobo to provide such a link? Especially when you agree that the "non-power-user" will probably never see/use such a download/sideload option anyway.

Simply because it's been decided that it's not worth the risk exposure. True. it's most likely that more advanced users would take advantage, but it's not guaranteed. Why risk the hassle, help-desk hours and reversed credit-card charges?

Secondly: what could Kobo convert it to? kepub is, to a certain extent, EPUB-3 compliant. RMSDK is not. Without doing extensive verification work on each individual file, how do you work out what can be converted and what can't? And if you allow downloads of the content, you (Kobo) possibly end up offering content that you can't sideload to your own reading devices.

I find it interesting that Google offers epub3 downloads. I wonder if they're counting on the fact that most epub3s are mislabeled? Might be that they don't think they'll run into any problems. (GPB is partially EPUB3 compliant as I understand things (possibly by converting the files to an intermediary HTML) and there are certainly a fair number of third-party EPUB3 readers in the Play Store.)

Still, if Google is willing to do it, it boils down to Google deciding that the risks involved are acceptable. And what's acceptable to Google may not be acceptable to others, due to any number of factors.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Except that when you add the preview/sample for that book to your library (like I did before purchasing), it lists "DRM-Free EPUB" as the download option. Which brings us right back to muddy again.

Now, that's a screwup. Hope you've reported that. (I've verified it for myself.)

Still, it doesn't change the fact that if you look at the main page for the book, before you even add a preview, there is no Download options entry. Which is a perfectly clear indication that the book is not available in that manner.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I reported it. CS chose not to address the non-working button at all. They just told me to sync the book to some apparently imaginary Kobo device that I'd already clearly told them I didn't own.

Oh, you did? This post gave me the impression that you didn't bother. My apologies.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Secondly: what could Kobo convert it to? kepub is, to a certain extent, EPUB-3 compliant. RMSDK is not. Without doing extensive verification work on each individual file, how do you work out what can be converted and what can't?

I'm not quite following on your conversion question. Other than providing a kepub for Kobo devices/apps (which they already do, by converting the original EPUB3), I'm not suggesting they convert the original DRM-Free EPUB3 to anything. Just provide it as is. Like they do DRM-Free EPUB2s.

Originally Posted by ottdmk

I find it interesting that Google offers epub3 downloads. I wonder if they're counting on the fact that most epub3s are mislabeled? Might be that they don't think they'll run into any problems.

I'm not certain where you've got the idea that most EPUB3s are "mislableled." Of all of the retail EPUB3s I've come across (mostly from Google and B&N--before they removed their download links altogether), there's been no mislabeling. It's true that most don't really have any content that would keep them from being done just as well as an EPUB2, but they're not mislabeled by any means. They're well-formed, valid EPUB3s with a compliant OPF file, a nav document, and a fallback NCX. Most decent EPUB2 reading system (including RMSDK-based ones) won't blow up when encountering one.

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Oh, you did? This post gave me the impression that you didn't bother. My apologies.

No problem. It wasn't until a little later in the thread that I did.

[eschwartz]

I would assume that anyone downloading the EPUB from Kobo's website would not be sideloading it onto Kobo's devices -- we can assume therefore that they would be putting it on a tablet, that does support EPUB3.
And chances are they know what they are doing anyway... (most people who don't know what they are doing just sync from the bookstore.
)

Saying that Kobo is trying to protect the buyer from doing stupid things is a ridiculous attempt at an excuse.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I would assume that anyone downloading the EPUB from Kobo's website would not be sideloading it onto Kobo's devices -- we can assume therefore that they would be putting it on a tablet, that does support EPUB3.
And chances are they know what they are doing anyway... (most people who don't know what they are doing just sync from the bookstore.
)

Saying that Kobo is trying to protect the buyer from doing stupid things is a ridiculous attempt at an excuse.

I download epubs I've bought from Kobo and sideload them to Kobo devices. I started out downloading directly and maxed out the memory before I hit 200 books.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I would assume that anyone downloading the EPUB from Kobo's website would not be sideloading it onto Kobo's devices -- we can assume therefore that they would be putting it on a tablet, that does support EPUB3.
And chances are they know what they are doing anyway... (most people who don't know what they are doing just sync from the bookstore.

What about the Sony customers that Kobo took over? They could be side loading to a Sony device.

[ottdmk]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not quite following on your conversion question. Other than providing a kepub for Kobo devices/apps (which they already do, by converting the original EPUB3), I'm not suggesting they convert the original DRM-Free EPUB3 to anything. Just provide it as is. Like they do DRM-Free EPUB2s.

Again, my apologies. I appear to have misread that part of the conversation.

I can sympathize with your wish that Kobo provide the DRM-free file regardless of whether it's EPUB 2 or 3. I'm just saying I can understand why they don't, given that a non-kepub EPUB3 is incompatible with not only the company's products but the vast majority of e-ink devices in the world. Selling them opens up the company to all kinds of potential problems.

I would expect a shift in this situation when Access gets Adobe DRM support (I understand Adobe joined the Readium project a couple of years ago and plans to extend its DRM to the platform, and Readium is the base for Access.) Once Access is the sole renderer for Kobo, at least sideloaded EPUB3 would be supported on Kobo's own devices.

[ottdmk]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Saying that Kobo is trying to protect the buyer from doing stupid things is a ridiculous attempt at an excuse.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Kobo likely wants to protect itself from the consequences of buyers doing stupid things, which I believe is an important distinction.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

I'm just saying I can understand why they don't, given that a non-kepub EPUB3 is incompatible with not only the company's products but the vast majority of e-ink devices in the world.

I'm OK with them deciding not to provide EPUB3 downloads. As long as they eliminate the gray areas (and/or bugs) that can suggest they do/might support it.

But I think you're a little off-base on declaring EPUB3 "incompatible" with their products and the vast majority of e-ink devices. As I added to my previous post, EPUB3 doesn't automatically mean "incompatible with EPUB2 renderers."

[Lynx-lynx]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I would assume that anyone downloading the EPUB from Kobo's website would not be sideloading it onto Kobo's devices -- we can assume therefore that they would be putting it on a tablet, that does support EPUB3.
And chances are they know what they are doing anyway... (most people who don't know what they are doing just sync from the bookstore.
)

Saying that Kobo is trying to protect the buyer from doing stupid things is a ridiculous attempt at an excuse.

I only sideload Calibe cleaned epubs onto my devices. I don't sync ever.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

Difflugia I'm wondering if you'd like to start a thread in the General Discussions sub-forum (that is, this sub-forum) explaining about the Google ebook site. I think that, like the other book seller sites, there's a bit to get across to understand how the site explains things and how it works etc.

A number of the posts in this thread have related to that topic and could be moved into the new thread as well.

I think that a greater audience of MR members would benefit from the dedicated thread than just those of us who are participating in this thread.

Anyway, up to you .... but I know that I've benefited greatly by what you've said/explained so far.

(Maybe the title of the thread could be something like: Buying Google Books - a Guide [or whatever])

I'm glad it helped! I'll try to pull it into something more coherent and post it.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

What about the Sony customers that Kobo took over? They could be side loading to a Sony device.

Currently they are selling the book to them and not allowing them to have it at all.
I don't think that constitutes a safer sales policy, considering that either way people will be upset, and since at least offering the EPUB3 means there is a chance it will all work itself out. Point-blank refusing them the book in any way shape or form (after telling them they can read it on their device) is guaranteed not to work...

At least usually when offering KEPUB-only books, they can say with a straight face that the buyer knows beforehand, only ecosystem devices are supported, not ADE.

ETA: I could be wrong (I don't have one) but I thought I heard that you could just download directly from the Sony device -- that was rather the/a point of Kobo support, wasn't it?

Originally Posted by issybird

I download epubs I've bought from Kobo and sideload them to Kobo devices. I started out downloading directly and maxed out the memory before I hit 200 books.

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

I only sideload Calibe cleaned epubs onto my devices. I don't sync ever.

Sigh.

I would have thought it would be fairly intuitive that you all fall under the exemption of chances-are-they-know-what-they-are-doing-anyway (I might be mistaken?)...

And as is often pointed out, MobileRead members are not compatible with assumptions about the default state of the average ebook consumer.



I maintain my claim.

[ottdmk]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Currently they are selling the book to them and not allowing them to have it at all.
I don't think that constitutes a safer sales policy, considering that either way people will be upset, and since at least offering the EPUB3 means there is a chance it will all work itself out. Point-blank refusing them the book in any way shape or form (after telling them they can read it on their device) is guaranteed not to work...

At least usually when offering KEPUB-only books, they can say with a straight face that the buyer knows beforehand, only ecosystem devices are supported, not ADE.

Interesting. How is this happening? Are EPUB3 titles showing as available in the Sony Reader software? If so, that's definitely a major problem.

I can see the Kobo site being a little confusing for Reader customers, and it causing some problems here and there. At least until they're informed that if there's no "Download options" line in the Details section it won't work on Sony devices.

[eschwartz]

According to the people who have Sonys here, you can browse the Kobo storefront from the Sony ereaders, and purchase KEPUB-only books -- but then you cannot download/read them.
No warning given.