The Kobo DRM-free epub fiasco

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by danicca

I'd have been a lot less annoyed if it was plainly stated in product description page. That way I could at least know what I'm buying beforehand so whatever it is, I made decision to buy it, no regrets after.

Well, obviously. The fact that we had to wait for a year before Kobo graciously gave us back the format info for epub2 says a lot...

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

Yep. And, as has been said before in other threads where this was discussed, it is not total senseless idiocy that Kobo slap their kepub stuff on epub3 books, kepubs being rendered by a different engine on Kobo readers, one which has much better epub3 support than the Adobe RMDSK engine, which is used to render regular epubs.

That's a fair point. Kobo has an obligation for DRMed EPUB3 books to render well on Kobo devices/apps. And under their current system, DRMed EPUB3s will only be available (for all practical purposes) on Kobo devices or in Kobo reading apps--no harm no foul with the proprietary kepub format or DRM (relatively speaking of course) in that scenario.

Where things go a bit pear-shaped is with DRM-Free EPUB3s. Like the ones being discussed in this thread. While providing these ebooks in DRM-Free proprietary formats (kepub) to customers who utilize your devices/apps is perfectly understandable (if not entirely commendable), not making the original DRM-Free EPUB3 available as a separate download (as is done with DRM-Free EPUB2s) is either a huge, fairly long-running oversight; or it's a conscious decision. A link to download the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB3 isn't any more complicated to implement than the link to the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB2 is. So at this stage of the game, I have to assume that they just don't want to provide a (working) link to the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB3.

Even if the reason for not providing those downloads happens to make good business sense, it's no excuse for implying that a user CAN, in fact, download the DRM-Free EPUB3 (the big blue button that says click me to do just that) when they can't.

Honest mistakes are fixed when they get brought to the right person's attention. Kobo KNOWS no one can download/sideload a DRM-Free EPUB3 from them (CS told me so in their response), and yet still they continue to mislead people into thinking they can.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Jane12

Thanks! I poked around Google Books. Is it safe to assume everything is available as an ADE-compatible epub as long as it says "best for: ereader" and "features: flowing text"? Anything else I need to know? As DiapDealer pointed out, seems we need a "freaking pre-buy checklist for each store" nowadays.

I'm not sure what flowing text has to do with it (if anything). It's a separate selection when uploading for us. You can select "flowing text only." Since I didn't know what that would mean for the files I left it unselected.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I'm not sure what flowing text has to do with it (if anything). It's a separate selection when uploading for us. You can select "flowing text only." Since I didn't know what that would mean for the files I left it unselected.

I'm assuming "flowing text only" means that it's not a "fixed-layout" document of any kind. Normal ol' EPUB2 would be flowing text only (even if there were images inserted here and there).

If I saw a book on Google Play that didn't have the "flowing text only" indicator, I'd certainly think twice before purchasing it. Could indicate a fixed-layout EPUB3.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That's a fair point. Kobo has an obligation for DRMed EPUB3 books to render well on Kobo devices/apps. And under their current system, DRMed EPUB3s will only be available (for all practical purposes) on Kobo devices or in Kobo reading apps--no harm no foul with the proprietary kepub format or DRM (relatively speaking of course) in that scenario.

Where things go a bit pear-shaped is with DRM-Free EPUB3s. Like the ones being discussed in this thread. While providing these ebooks in DRM-Free proprietary formats (kepub) to customers who utilize your devices/apps is perfectly understandable (if not entirely commendable), not making the original DRM-Free EPUB3 available as a separate download (as is done with DRM-Free EPUB2s) is either a huge, fairly long-running oversight; or it's a conscious decision. A link to download the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB3 isn't any more complicated to implement than the link to the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB2 is. So at this stage of the game, I have to assume that they just don't want to provide a (working) link to the original publisher-submitted DRM-Free EPUB3.

Even if the reason for not providing those downloads happens to make good business sense, it's no excuse for implying that a user CAN, in fact, download the DRM-Free EPUB3 (the big blue button that says click me to do just that) when they can't.

Honest mistakes are fixed when they get brought to the right person's attention. Kobo KNOWS no one can download/sideload a DRM-Free EPUB3 from them (CS told me so in their response), and yet still they continue to mislead people into thinking they can.

I think they also have the obligation to have a non kepub version for the Sony customers they took over too. I wonder how the kepub only books look when shopping from a Sony ereader that now connects to the Kobo store. Does it appear that they would work on a Sony, or do the books not show up at all?

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Jane12

Thanks! I poked around Google Books. Is it safe to assume everything is available as an ADE-compatible epub as long as it says "best for: ereader" and "features: flowing text"? Anything else I need to know? As DiapDealer pointed out, seems we need a "freaking pre-buy checklist for each store" nowadays.

Here's a screen print of a book in a fixed layout. If you search for this book there are two versions available for some reason.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm assuming "flowing text only" means that it's not a "fixed-layout" document of any kind. Normal ol' EPUB2 would be flowing text only (even if there were images inserted here and there).

If I saw a book on Google Play that didn't have the "flowing text only" indicator, I'd certainly think twice before purchasing it. Could indicate a fixed-layout EPUB3.

Well it doesn't say it won't do flowing text, just flowing text ONLY. I'll have to go see what mine look like in the store and see if there is something I need to do. Thanks.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well it doesn't say it won't do flowing text, just flowing text ONLY. I'll have to go see what mine look like in the store and see if there is something I need to do. Thanks.

Just an assumption on my part, remember. I've never really looked at whether "flowing text only" was indicated on the majority of books or not. I just know that if there were two books I was interested in, and one said; "flowing text only" and the other didn't... I'd probably be choosing the one that did. Or I'd at least be emailing CS asking what it meant.

Flowable epub2 or 3 I'm down with (for novels). Fixed-layout stuff??? I'd definitely want to know about before I click "buy".

[Marrella]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

Here's an example of a free book from Tor that won't download from Kobo but downloads fine from Google:

Some of the Best From Tor.com: 2014: A Tor.Com Original

Kobo
Google

They seem to have fixed it, since I just added it to my library and was able to download it. My Kobo account is set to Germany.

I have already "bought" it from Amazon, but it is always nice to have the epub as well.

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm assuming "flowing text only" means that it's not a "fixed-layout" document of any kind. Normal ol' EPUB2 would be flowing text only (even if there were images inserted here and there).

If I saw a book on Google Play that didn't have the "flowing text only" indicator, I'd certainly think twice before purchasing it. Could indicate a fixed-layout EPUB3.

I think "flowing text" is Google-speak for epub and the other option, "scanned pages" is PDF. If you use the Google Books interface and mouse over the "BUY EBOOK" button, you'l get one of three popups:


This is an epub.


This is a PDF.


This is both.

While I haven't bought that many books from Google, I've only seen the above three possibilities and they've (so far) always correlated to epub, PDF and both respectively.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Difflugia

While I haven't bought that many books from Google, I've only seen the above three possibilities and they've (so far) always correlated to epub, PDF and both respectively.

Thanks for the explanation. This opens up another generic epub retailer for me.

[BearMountainBooks]

Thanks. Mine seem to be both, although I only uploaded the epub. Both is fine with me if they want to convert the thing. My interface only shows something like that at the bottom of the book page. Hovering did not yield the table. Maybe it's a mobile versus laptop thing, but I did find the info. Thanks!

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Difflugia

I think "flowing text" is Google-speak for epub and the other option, "scanned pages" is PDF. If you use the Google Books interface and mouse over the "BUY EBOOK" button, you'l get one of three popups:


While I haven't bought that many books from Google, I've only seen the above three possibilities and they've (so far) always correlated to epub, PDF and both respectively.

Thanks for the insight. Much appreciated!

[Difflugia]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

My interface only shows something like that at the bottom of the book page. Hovering did not yield the table. Maybe it's a mobile versus laptop thing, but I did find the info. Thanks!

I wasn't really clear, but I meant the web interface at books.google.com rather than the app or play.google.com. I much prefer books.google.com as I think it's easier to use and the search seems to work better. Once you click the buy link, you're still taken to play.google.com to complete the purchase.

[Difflugia]

There's also an advanced search (http://books.google.com/advanced_book_search). Some of the fields (limit by publication date, for example) don't work correctly and they don't seem to link to it anymore, so I think it may have been abandoned. It's not hard to remember the URL, though, and it's a really good search engine.