Is SF dying?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes, we get that. We also get your dislike for The Hunger Games.

Now there is disliking a book you've read but noticing that it's not poorly written, it's just something that doesn't interest you and then there is noticing it's poorly written. Where does The Hunger Games fall for you?

Every time he writes that I want to suggest a good dystopian for him to try. But then I have to figure out what it is about dystopian that he hates (first). It's like he's throwing down the gauntlet, isn't it?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by kyteflyer

Did I mention I love Stephen Baxter?

How are you with Hogan?
Bujold? (CRYOBURN, for one.)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

The Hunger Games would have been eligible in 2009 when there were two YA books on the ballot and one of them won (The Graveyard Book won, Little Brother was on the shortlist.) I feel that the Hugo is the one award where a gripping story of mixed literary merit could do well, since it is a popular vote. I don't know if the award was too soon for the book to have made an impact or if people just didn't really rate it. It doesn't look an especially strong shortlist that year, to my biases, but I did like the winner.

Having read The graveyard Book I feel it didn't deserve to win. I think it won based on the fact that the author is Neil Gaiman and not that the story was an award winner.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I own that one. Haven't read it yet.

I have the second Molly Fyde book ready to go on my H2O next time I hook it up to one of my computers.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Every time he writes that I want to suggest a good dystopian for him to try. But then I have to figure out what it is about dystopian that he hates (first). It's like he's throwing down the gauntlet, isn't it?

Please, feel free to post the titles of some dystopian books you do like. I'd be interested in your list.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Every time he writes that I want to suggest a good dystopian for him to try. But then I have to figure out what it is about dystopian that he hates (first). It's like he's throwing down the gauntlet, isn't it?

I'm not much for dystopias but some I do like. Mostly the ones that many find seriously offensive. Most so-called dystopias aren't particularly worse than the real world, just bad in different ways.

[DiapDealer]

I wouldn't want to live on a steady diet of dystopian fiction, or anything, but I DO usually find it more interesting than its utopian or meh-topian siblings.

I mean lets face it, dystopia usually goes hand-in-hand with post-apoc. And "good times" after an apocalypse seem rather unlikely, disingenuous, or both.

Still ... some of my favorite dystopian stories were ones where the dystopian society came not after "a fall," but rather because of societal trends.

I could see growing weary of the post-apoc theme (though I don't seem to tire of it myself if well-written), it's a fairly cut & paste path to the dystopian portion of the show that many authors seem to take.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Every time he writes that I want to suggest a good dystopian for him to try. But then I have to figure out what it is about dystopian that he hates (first). It's like he's throwing down the gauntlet, isn't it?

Well, in part I just find it very hard to imagine any of those worlds actually happening. I mean, granted, a lot of SFF can't possibly happen, but generally you can see it happening if only x.
I don't find them convincing, and several high-profile ones are overly derivative and formulaic I feel -- kind of makes it seem like the recent surge of dystopians is just people trying to capitalize on the popularity of The Hunger Games, and not setting out to write a good story.

Mind you, I did enjoy Steelheart and Firestorm immensely.
And, I guess Asimov might count?

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Well, in part I just find it very hard to imagine any of those worlds actually happening. I mean, granted, a lot of SFF can't possibly happen, but generally you can see it happening if only x.
I don't find them convincing, and several high-profile ones are overly derivative and formulaic I feel -- kind of makes it seem like the recent surge of dystopians is just people trying to capitalize on the popularity of The Hunger Games, and not setting out to write a good story.

Mind you, I did enjoy Steelheart and Firestorm immensely.
And, I guess Asimov might count?

In looking through my list, I don't read a lot of dystopian and what I do read hasn't made enough of an impression on me that I blogged it. I can think of at least one that was going along decent and then became a DNF because it had to devolved into the "great sex scene(s)" (and no, this was not written by a gal, it was written by a guy and told from the male POV). Between that and the other hero-complex scenes, I'd had enough and moved on.

Most of those I've read appear to be short stories (I think Backlash by Nancy Fulda was a good one but I'm not sure it's ENTIRELY dystopian as it's more mystery). I also did enjoy Hollowland despite its flaws (and there were a few). It's pure entertainment and not to be taken as serious sci/fi, but it does hold with themes of using humans to experiment on so in that aspect it's definitely sci/fi.

This is on my wish list too, thanks to my reading buddy:

http://www.amazon.com/Wolf-Iron-Gord...=wolf+and+iron

(Iron and Wolf is the title).

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Well, in part I just find it very hard to imagine any of those worlds actually happening.

Are we supposed to imagine those worlds existing, or are we supposed to imagine those elements in our world taken to their illogical conclusions? Say the state using entertainment as a form of control (The Hunger Games) or the state manipulating information as a form of control (1984).

Either way, my main criticism of dystopias is their unmitigated depressing cynicism. The Hunger Games wasn't so bad in that respect. Katniss did succeed in some of her struggles, even though she ultimately lost many of her struggles. Other dystopias aren't nearly as optimistic.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Are we supposed to imagine those worlds existing, or are we supposed to imagine those elements in our world taken to their illogical conclusions? .

Well, some "dystopias" are only bad from the point of view of the protagonist so they could easily come to pass in stages. Or require an even worse world state to enable it. Others don't really need a plausible road map because they are meant as cautionary tales about elements in our world that can mess everybody up, even without going to illogical extremes.

As you pointed out, governments can and do use information control to drive their populations where they want them. Corporations, too. Historical revisionism is a fact even in "free" nations. Every time somebody screams "1984" in a political debate Orwell's shade should smile at a job well done.

Other dystopias, however, are simply crafted to provide a challenge for the protagonist and targets to blow away without much concern.

[BearMountainBooks]

I lean towards liking the dystopias that are crafted to provide a challenge and targets to blow away...with good characterization and usually a mystery to be solved. The ones that drape themselves in bad news (1984) are not for me no matter how valid the lesson being pushed.

[DrNefario]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Other dystopias, however, are simply crafted to provide a challenge for the protagonist and targets to blow away without much concern.

I feel that's the key with Hunger Games. The setting doesn't really even make internal sense, it's just an excuse to have the Hunger Games. I enjoyed all three books, but they're a bit like a blockbuster film, where you come out thinking "hang on..." having been thoroughly entertained by the explosions while you were in there.

Of course, Hunger Games is part of the rapidly growing YA SF sector, and not part of the "declining" adult sector at all. If you're an SF writer, might you not want to dip a toe into YA? Especially now it has become more common for YA works to cross over into an adult audience anyway.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I feel that's the key with Hunger Games. The setting doesn't really even make internal sense, it's just an excuse to have the Hunger Games. I enjoyed all three books, but they're a bit like a blockbuster film, where you come out thinking "hang on..." having been thoroughly entertained by the explosions while you were in there.

Of course, Hunger Games is part of the rapidly growing YA SF sector, and not part of the "declining" adult sector at all. If you're an SF writer, might you not want to dip a toe into YA? Especially now it has become more common for YA works to cross over into an adult audience anyway.

From what I hear from one of my trad author buddies, New York is "done" with the YA paranormal/fantasy/scifi spinoffs and are moving back towards mundane mysteries. YA was quite hot (in any category) but there's been a bit of cooling off in the buying patterns. The advertising rates show that mysteries are the most popular category right now and what little I do to stay plugged in shows an interest from NY in cozies, mundane and very little to do with sci/fi and/or paranormal.

Of course, NY has often mistimed releases and been flat-out wrong.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I feel that's the key with Hunger Games. The setting doesn't really even make internal sense, it's just an excuse to have the Hunger Games. I enjoyed all three books, but they're a bit like a blockbuster film, where you come out thinking "hang on..." having been thoroughly entertained by the explosions while you were in there.

Exactly, and it drives me nuts. Generally I prefer my worlds to make sense from an internal point of view. Given that x differences exist between this world and the world of the story, it has to make sense that things would happpen as they did.

The story has to feel as though, in some other world where the rules work differently or things didn't happen in quite the same way, that it totally makes sense that things turn out the way they do.

I find this to be the hallmark of a well-written story.

So I guess it isn't the fundamental concept of a dystopia that I dislike it is the fact that all the popular and well-known dystopias stink. (In my opinion, at least.)