Macmillan comes to terms with Amazon

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Generally, authors need not sign-away their right at all, certainly not in perpetuity. A lot of the issue with the ebook rights to the older books is a combination of ambiguity in the contracts and the lack of return for converting the older books, most of whom don't exist in electronic form and lack of interest in actually doing so.

If only this were true. And no, not in perpetuity but so long it may as well be. The following link is from fjtorres earlier post in this thread. The article it references is well worth a read.

http://kriswrites.com/2014/12/17/business-musings-what-traditional-publishing-learned-in-2014/#sthash.ZmoWXmU4.dpbs[/URL]

[pwalker8]

That's nice, but some guy's blog isn't exactly proof unless he happens to be a subject matter expert.

Here are a couple of articles which discuss ebook rights specifically

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_392687.html
http://www.copylaw.org/2011/12/who-c...ok-rights.html
https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/ForRe...html#reversion

What it really comes down to is what the literary agent negotiates. Even if you sign over all your rights, you can have the rights revert back to you after a period of time.

Katherine Kurtz mentioned that the reason that her first three Deryni books are in ebook is because a fan urged her to do it and converted them to ebook for free.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That's nice, but some guy's blog isn't exactly proof unless he happens to be a subject matter expert.

Here are a couple of articles which discuss ebook rights specifically

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_392687.html
http://www.copylaw.org/2011/12/who-c...ok-rights.html
https://www.lib.purdue.edu/uco/ForRe...html#reversion

Did anyone say anything was proof? It is all merely food for thought; the caveat is, that you have to be wiling to think about it. Also, what about your Huffington Post article???

But never mind that. I just have one question: do you or do you not agree with the analysis made in the quoted article?

What it really comes down to is what the literary agent negotiates. Even if you sign over all your rights, you can have the rights revert back to you after a period of time.

...depending on whether or not you meet the conditions.

Katherine Kurtz mentioned that the reason that her first three Deryni books are in ebook is because a fan urged her to do it and converted them to ebook for free.

I assume she must have owned the rights to the ebook, then -- surely a mighty endeavor!

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Did anyone say anything was proof? It is all merely food for thought; the caveat is, that you have to be wiling to think about it. Also, what about your Huffington Post article???

But never mind that. I just have one question: do you or do you not agree with the analysis made in the quoted article?



...depending on whether or not you meet the conditions.



I assume she must have owned the rights to the ebook, then -- surely a mighty endeavor!

There were some points that I agree with and other points that I disagree with. He seems to think that publishers view books as widgets, which I strongly disagree with. He says that you should understand the contracts and go into the contract negotiations with open eyes. I very much agree with that. (note, that's why smart authors hire literary agents who understand contracts). He says that writers who go with traditional publishers are risk averse and I disagree with that. I would say that writers who go with traditional publishers are those who understand what the publishers bring to the table and value it.

What points did you take from the article?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

There were some points that I agree with and other points that I disagree with. He seems to think that publishers view books as widgets, which I strongly disagree with.

Why, do you think they are in the business for the sake of art?

He says that you should understand the contracts and go into the contract negotiations with open eyes. I very much agree with that. (note, that's why smart authors hire literary agents who understand contracts).

Agreed.

He says that writers who go with traditional publishers are risk averse and I disagree with that. I would say that writers who go with traditional publishers are those who understand what the publishers bring to the table and value it.

Some of them, yes. Some are stuck in the old mindset that they are utterly dependent on the charitableness of their prospective publishers. e.g. new and inexperienced authors, or tradpub veterans.

And that is precisely the problem.


There are indie champions who have contracted their pbook rights to tradpubs and done quite well, no one is suggesting that you cannot get a good deal from tradpubs, merely that you will have to fight for it (and have something special on the table).

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Why, do you think they are in the business for the sake of art?


...

I think they are in business to make money. With books, as with most art forms, the focus is on what is known in the business as the talent. A lot of publishing houses or imprints will space out the books by their top authors so they don't conflict. For example, Jim Baen rarely had a new Weber book come out in the same month as a new Bujold book. Treating books as widgets implies that there is no difference between books. That is very much _not_ the business model of most publishers. Most are looking for the next big name, the next Clancy or Rowling.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

...

There are indie champions who have contracted their pbook rights to tradpubs and done quite well, no one is suggesting that you cannot get a good deal from tradpubs, merely that you will have to fight for it (and have something special on the table).

That is the case for anyone who negotiates a contract with anyone else. If there is something that you want, you have to make sure that it's in the contract. The more they want you, the more leverage you have. The standard contract for any business tends to be very much slanted towards the "company". Would you walk into a car dealership and take the first car they pushed you towards without any negotiation?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I think they are in business to make money. With books, as with most art forms, the focus is on what is known in the business as the talent. A lot of publishing houses or imprints will space out the books by their top authors so they don't conflict. For example, Jim Baen rarely had a new Weber book come out in the same month as a new Bujold book. Treating books as widgets implies that there is no difference between books. That is very much _not_ the business model of most publishers. Most are looking for the next big name, the next Clancy or Rowling.

Well, yes, there are different levels of widgets and some widgets are big-name widgets and most are small-name widgets, and big-name widgets are more valuable and (interchangeably) deserving of special concessions, like dedicated release months.

What is your point???

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That is the case for anyone who negotiates a contract with anyone else. If there is something that you want, you have to make sure that it's in the contract. The more they want you, the more leverage you have. The standard contract for any business tends to be very much slanted towards the "company". Would you walk into a car dealership and take the first car they pushed you towards without any negotiation?

Yes, I would, if I happened to believe that I had no rights and no bargaining power and this was the only car I would have offered to me. Because at the end of the day, I really, really need a car.

Until recently, there were no options for a prospective author who didn't like the mostly generic terms offered by tradpubs. Now, they can go indie.
A lucky few had a hot commodity in a story that was billeted to be the Next Big Thing, and tradpubs extended much better offers in an attempt to steal the deal from other publishers.

Many prospective authors even today are skeptical of indie publishing and feel that their only option is to land a tradpub contract. They are easy targets, because they feel lucky to get anything.


In general, a new author doesn't have anything special on the table, and (historically) doesn't have any particular reason to think they can hold out for anything better. The tradpub doesn't care, because there are plenty of other fishes at that skill level.

The car dealership equivalent would be if there is a long line of people walking into a car dealership all wanting the same handful of cars. The dealer can be assured there is a sucker in there for each car, and has no reason to negotiate. Thus, the prospective customer knows he has less bargaining power, and has to outbid the suckers if he wants to get a car. Then it becomes a matter of, is it better to be carless (jobless in the author world) or to get an unfair deal (tradpubbed in the author world).

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Well, yes, there are different levels of widgets and some widgets are big-name widgets and most are small-name widgets, and big-name widgets are more valuable and (interchangeably) deserving of special concessions, like dedicated release months.

What is your point???

Well, that's an interesting definition of widget. A widget is an economic term for an abstract unit of production. In general, it is used to say there is no difference between the individual items.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Yes, I would, if I happened to believe that I had no rights and no bargaining power and this was the only car I would have offered to me. Because at the end of the day, I really, really need a car.

Until recently, there were no options for a prospective author who didn't like the mostly generic terms offered by tradpubs. Now, they can go indie.
A lucky few had a hot commodity in a story that was billeted to be the Next Big Thing, and tradpubs extended much better offers in an attempt to steal the deal from other publishers.

Many prospective authors even today are skeptical of indie publishing and feel that their only option is to land a tradpub contract. They are easy targets, because they feel lucky to get anything.


In general, a new author doesn't have anything special on the table, and (historically) doesn't have any particular reason to think they can hold out for anything better. The tradpub doesn't care, because there are plenty of other fishes at that skill level.

The car dealership equivalent would be if there is a long line of people walking into a car dealership all wanting the same handful of cars. The dealer can be assured there is a sucker in there for each car, and has no reason to negotiate. Thus, the prospective customer knows he has less bargaining power, and has to outbid the suckers if he wants to get a car. Then it becomes a matter of, is it better to be carless (jobless in the author world) or to get an unfair deal (tradpubbed in the author world).

Actually, there is quite a bit of choice between the various publishers. That's why authors and their agents shop a book around, looking for the best offer. It is a lot like a car dealership in that there is the Smiling Sam dealership where they try to fast sell you on a bad contract, and there are dealers who value return business. When I was buying my first new car, the first dealer tried to push me into buying their low end car. When I went to the next dealer, I was able to get the next model up, for less money.

If the publishers think you have a good book, then they show a lot more flexibility because they 1) want the book and 2) want to keep a good relationship with the talent so they can get the next book. On the other hand, if you are trying to peddle a book that isn't all that good, then you end up dealing with the publishers who are the next step up from vanity publishers.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Well, that's an interesting definition of widget. A widget is an economic term for an abstract unit of production. In general, it is used to say there is no difference between the individual items.

Is that not precisely what I said???

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Actually, there is quite a bit of choice between the various publishers. That's why authors and their agents shop a book around, looking for the best offer. It is a lot like a car dealership in that there is the Smiling Sam dealership where they try to fast sell you on a bad contract, and there are dealers who value return business. When I was buying my first new car, the first dealer tried to push me into buying their low end car. When I went to the next dealer, I was able to get the next model up, for less money.

If the publishers think you have a good book, then they show a lot more flexibility because they 1) want the book and 2) want to keep a good relationship with the talent so they can get the next book. On the other hand, if you are trying to peddle a book that isn't all that good, then you end up dealing with the publishers who are the next step up from vanity publishers.

And that is exactly the golden world that a small handful of elite authors live in.

The 99% rest of the authors world has to deal with publishers who are happy to take any talent as long as it is willing to sell for less, and there is plenty of decent talent for them to choose from.

Because as I said, car dealers are bidding for your attention.
But authors are bidding for the publishers' attention (not the other way around).

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Is that not precisely what I said???

No it's not. You said that big name widgets are more valuable than same name widgets, ergo they are not the same.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And that is exactly the golden world that a small handful of elite authors live in.

The 99% rest of the authors world has to deal with publishers who are happy to take any talent as long as it is willing to sell for less, and there is plenty of decent talent for them to choose from.

Because as I said, car dealers are bidding for your attention.
But authors are bidding for the publishers' attention (not the other way around).

There is a difference between an elite author and an author that has a steady audience. While elite author is the one that signs the big bucks contracts, the authors with a steady audience tend to have good relationships with their publishers as well.

Few of the major publishers are happy to take any talent as long as they are willing to sell for less. They are looking for talent that will at least let them break even. A while back, I posted a link that said that the normal burdened cost of publishing a book is 50K. That's before it hits the market and excluding any up front payment to the author.

There are, of course, publishers who are happy to publish any level talent. They used to be called vanity publishers.

I doubt that 99% of authors fall to that level. Perhaps 99% of would be authors do, but most working authors don't.