Hidden headings/links don't work in iBooks?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Psymon

I know we're getting waaaaaay off-topic here for these forums, but actually, you did get me curious what the most recent stats were re browser popularity, and I was genuinely shocked (not in a bad way) to discover how high Chrome is now, and how low IE has fallen! It's been quite a few years since I did web design for clients, so I haven't really paid much attention in a long time -- but wow, things sure have changed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_s...f_web_browsers

I've been using Firefox for the last five years or so -- maybe I'll check out Chrome now (which I haven't installed at all, ever), see what all the hubbub is about.

Indeed it has, although i don't see why -- having tried both, I vastly prefer Firefox!

Chrome may be a top-notch browser for standards-compliant web browsing, but it has an irritatingly-minimalist design (which FF unfortunately imitated, still, in FF it can at least be undone) and lacks FF's plugin flexibility. Oh well, at least you can play 2048 offline and stuff.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

It's a minor inconvenience for you, because you are--no insult intended--you are a hobbyist.

Gee, I don't know how I could possibly take offense to that, to be told that my professional opinion doesn't count (and yes, I was a professional web designer, working for clients, with many, many websites under my belt, for more than a decade-and-a-half) because I'm just a "hobbyist." :/ Y'know, I might have only gotten into publishing ebooks over the last couple of years, and might have only two published books so far (with four more on the way), but that doesn't mean that I'm not serious about what I do, nor that I'm incompetent at it.

We all have things we can learn from others -- we all do, Hitch, even you -- even from mere "hobbyists."

It's a major inconvenience to the rest of us, because we have to work around the "wrong" ways of iBooks all the time, to try to allow our myriad clients to have books that will work on ALL fronts, even to the extent of making 2 (or now 3) ePUBs for different platforms. That's really not quite the same thing as tweaking code to ensure that it works, however much of a kluge, across Internet Exploder, Chrome, FF, etc. Just a point.

I beg to differ -- if you ask me, it's exactly the same thing, the issues with designing for different ebook platforms are perfectly analagous to designing web pages for different platforms. I can't think of a better analogy than that one, in fact.

[eschwartz]

Well, with websites everyhing is loaded over the internet, and you can take advantage of server-side processing to feed different user-agents custom resources... oh, and [if IE] comments!
And you can always update as you fine-tune the results.

So websites are a work-in-progress, and testable via software... whereas ebooks are offline websites, and there are what, dozens of different hardware devices you need to test?

In terms of actual specs conformance, I don't know how different they are -- and I claim no expertise -- but I can see why ebooks should cause a lot more grief simply due to the inherent decentralization and non-specificity of design.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

So websites are a work-in-progress, and testable via software... whereas ebooks are offline websites, and there are what, dozens of different hardware devices you need to test?

In terms of actual specs conformance, I don't know how different they are -- and I claim no expertise -- but I can see why ebooks should cause a lot more grief simply due to the inherent decentralization and non-specificity of design.

Oh, I understand that, and I agree, but I was making an analogy with web design, I wasn't saying that they're exactly the same in the regard that you're saying, but rather in a different sense. My point before was directed at others saying that I should get rid of my iPad and get a "real" e-reader, and that everyone out there using iPads should get the same -- well, you can't just get "everyone" to do that, just as with web design one can't expect the whole world to stop using IE.

And so...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the epublishing experience and know-how to make a difference.

[JSWolf]

iBooks is a mess unto itself.

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by Psymon

My point before was directed at others saying that I should get rid of my iPad and get a "real" e-reader, and that everyone out there using iPads should get the same -- well, you can't just get "everyone" to do that, just as with web design one can't expect the whole world to stop using IE.

iPads's are not the issue, iBooks is...

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Psymon

My point before was directed at others saying that I should get rid of my iPad and get a "real" e-reader, and that everyone out there using iPads should get the same -- well, you can't just get "everyone" to do that, just as with web design one can't expect the whole world to stop using IE.

But you can tell the people to whom you are formatting these eBooks for to get a different app such as Marvin and/or Bluefire Reader. The iPad itself is not a problem. iBooks the app is the problem. It's trivial to download a different app and use that. Don't think iBook i your only choice on an iPad or that iBook is the iPad. Too many people say the ipad is a problem when really it's just iBooks that's a problem. They think that because iBooks comes with iOS that the have to use it and that it's all there is.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you can tell the people to whom you are formatting these eBooks for to get a different app such as Marvin and/or Bluefire Reader. The iPad itself is not a problem. iBooks the app is the problem. It's trivial to download a different app and use that.

We already went through all this, and this is exactly the issue that I was making the analogy about -- what you're suggesting just ain't ever gonna happen. What you're saying, in effect, is to have everyone in the world who is using iBooks to stop using iBooks and use Marvin or whatever else instead, and if it was that simple a thing to accomplish, then I'm sure you would have accomplished it by now, and nobody anywhere would be using iBooks.

In my experience with web design -- and I have no doubt whatsoever that this applies with ebooks, too -- people just like whatever app (in that case, browser) they like. IE ships with PCs, all the old ladies and old men out there like it, they don't like being told what to do and are leery of any "advice" you might give them to change, or are afraid that they'll screw something up, or lose some info/data somehow, or whatever other reason -- you just can't tell EVERYONE to up and stop using iBooks and expect that it'll happen with a snap of the fingers.

And so either you design for it, taking it into consideration, with all it's quirks, or you don't -- and if you don't, well, if your book looks like crap in iBooks, then the people out there aren't going to assume that it's the app's fault, they're going to assume that it's your fault.

In any case, your suggestion to simply "tell the people to whom you are formatting these eBooks for to get a different app" is just absurd. How do I "tell" these people, let alone force them to obey my command? Do I put a BIG, LOUD note on the first page of the book that says "DON'T OPEN THIS BOOK UNLESS YOU STOP USING IBOOKS" or something? And then how do I go about locking them out from looking at it if they disobey?

Ironically, that was something that was done with web site design, where some designers actually locked out people who were using IE, telling them that they couldn't come in and see the site unless they got a different browser -- all they accomplished, really, was to piss off a helluva lot of people all over the world, who thought the designers were basically just incompetent fools, far more than any minds that they might have changed.

Pardon my repeating here what I essentially said earlier, but as I did say, we went through this already, you (or someone) suggested that "solution" before, and I already explained why it's just absurd to think that it would actually work.

[eschwartz]

Some people had an Internet Explorer tax.

Perhapd what we need is an iBooks tax -- an extra charge in the iTunes Store for the work needed to get it to work in Books.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Gee, I don't know how I could possibly take offense to that, to be told that my professional opinion doesn't count (and yes, I was a professional web designer, working for clients, with many, many websites under my belt, for more than a decade-and-a-half) because I'm just a "hobbyist." :/ Y'know, I might have only gotten into publishing ebooks over the last couple of years, and might have only two published books so far (with four more on the way), but that doesn't mean that I'm not serious about what I do, nor that I'm incompetent at it.

We all have things we can learn from others -- we all do, Hitch, even you -- even from mere "hobbyists."

I meant nothing other than, you are not making 100 books at a time. I--me, we, my company--are and do. So, sorry, the inconvenience for YOU, and the inconvenience, for ME, are not the bloody same. No two books are the same, as you yourself would undoubtedly agree. That means, every single time some new and "improved" iBooks-only glitch comes up, with some not-industry-standard "fix" that needs to be made, it's almost never something easy to replicate across the board. I don't have some magic sausage-making machine here; I have real live people, just like you, each working on their set number of books.

I beg to differ -- if you ask me, it's exactly the same thing, the issues with designing for different ebook platforms are perfectly analagous to designing web pages for different platforms. I can't think of a better analogy than that one, in fact.

No. It's not. You can fix a website, for compliance with different browsers. And, if you happen to be a guy who's done 2500 websites, well, then, YES, I guess it's the same, if all 2000+ of your clients all expect you to go back and FIX what wasn't wrong, 12 months ago, to what is "wrong" today, because some idiot at Apple decided that using compliant code just isn't the Apple way. And, with all due respect, while it's true that different browsers show different things, in different ways, etc., the fact is that most of the website glitchiness is documented, AND, for size issues, there are extensive, and I mean, EXTENSIVE, media queries. OR, you can use something like Bootstrap. And, moreover, if, as a web designer, you use what's known to be relatively safe, 99% of the time, it will work cross-browser. With Apple? On ePUB? You just don't know, now, then, ever.

So, I'm sorry if you took offense to the word, "hobbyist," but unless/until you are making dozens of books, and you're being paid by clients other than YOURSELF, all of whom think that they own some piece of your time, and you're at the mercy of Apple and the others, it IS a Hobby. For that matter, if Dan Brown decides to start making his own eBooks, HE is a hobbyist bookmaker. So is anyone making their OWN, no matter how much of a perfectionist s/he is.

As I said, if you took offense, which I believe I said, absolutely wasn't intended in any way, my apologies, but I still firmly believe that there is a vast difference between commercial book production and making your OWN books, in terms of whom you have to satisfy, what you're expected to do, and upon whose nickel you're expected to do it, when it comes to leaping through hoops created by APPLE.

Hitch

[Psymon]

Okay, I see your point, Hitch, and I understand your point, it's a very valid point, and I completely agree with you.

What you're talking about, and what you're laying into me for, has nothing to do with the point that I was repeatedly trying to make. I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself, but I'll try one more time...

The point that I'm making has to do with the, uh, "suggestion" that I not use iBooks (and use Marvin or whatever else instead), that I go tell everyone I know not to use iBooks, that I somehow go out and convince the entire world to not use iBooks -- which is an absolutely absurd suggestion to make, if anyone thinks that it's remotely possible. All I'll accomplish if I try is to maybe convince a couple of people, and totally pissing off the rest.

That was my point. That was my analogy with web design and IE. If you don't want to design for iBooks, well, fine! I could care less! All I'm saying is that if you don't, and things look "weird" in that, then most people using that won't assume that it's their software that's buggy, but rather that it's you.

Do you understand what I'm saying, and what I have been saying, over and over again, yet? I honestly don't know how I could possibly make that any clearer.

I'm not arguing with what you're saying, but if you want to rebut what I'm saying, well, at least rebut what I'm actually saying, the really rather simple and ridiculously obvious point that I've been making (or trying to make) over and over again. :/

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Okay, I see your point, Hitch, and I understand your point, it's a very valid point, and I completely agree with you.

What you're talking about, and what you're laying into me for, has nothing to do with the point that I was repeatedly trying to make. I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself, but I'll try one more time...

The point that I'm making has to do with the, uh, "suggestion" that I not use iBooks (and use Marvin or whatever else instead), that I go tell everyone I know not to use iBooks, that I somehow go out and convince the entire world to not use iBooks -- which is an absolutely absurd suggestion to make, if anyone thinks that it's remotely possible. All I'll accomplish if I try is to maybe convince a couple of people, and totally pissing off the rest.

That was my point. That was my analogy with web design and IE. If you don't want to design for iBooks, well, fine! I could care less! All I'm saying is that if you don't, and things look "weird" in that, then most people using that won't assume that it's their software that's buggy, but rather that it's you.

Do you understand what I'm saying, and what I have been saying, over and over again, yet? I honestly don't know how I could possibly make that any clearer.

I'm not arguing with what you're saying, but if you want to rebut what I'm saying, well, at least rebut what I'm actually saying, the really rather simple and ridiculously obvious point that I've been making (or trying to make) over and over again. :/

I do understand your point. I wish I could convince them all not to use it, too. ;-)

And, seriously: yes, OF COURSE, they assume it's you. I deal with that probably, 5-10x daily. I can't count, on a single hand, how many times a day I have to 'splain that the running header in Kindle looks the way it's gunna, no matter WHAT we type in there? That I can't KERN it? OMG....

Hitch

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I do understand your point. I wish I could convince them all not to use it, too. ;-)

Well, write a book -- er, an ebook. Who knows, you just might change the world.

[PeterT]

And the fact that as long as people encourage Apple to break things by purchasing their I implementations.....

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Well, write a book -- er, an ebook. Who knows, you just might change the world.

Best way to change the world is to get the BPHs to actually properly format there eBooks.