The Vent and Rant Thread

[wodin]

Careful Hitch, you'll get us relegated to the Sand Box AKA Politics and Religion.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by wodin

Careful Hitch, you'll get us relegated to the Sand Box AKA Politics and Religion.

And everything Hitch says is only true of the United States AFAIK.

Certainly, here in the UK, that kind of tax penalty is not in place, so it's good to be made aware that, when I visit the States, it's an entirely different ballgame when it comes to tipping.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by wodin

Careful Hitch, you'll get us relegated to the Sand Box AKA Politics and Religion.

wodin?

But, really...I only worship at the Altar of Undeclared Income on alternate Sundays. Surely, that won't get me sandboxed, will it?

Hitch

[TimW]

Originally Posted by Hitch

wodin?

But, really...I only worship at the Altar of Undeclared Income on alternate Sundays. Surely, that won't get me sandboxed, will it?

Hitch

Being sandboxed isn't necessarily a bad thing...unless the sandbox in question has been frequented by neighborhood pussycats. In that case, bare feet are not recommended.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

And everything Hitch says is only true of the United States AFAIK.

Certainly, here in the UK, that kind of tax penalty is not in place, so it's good to be made aware that, when I visit the States, it's an entirely different ballgame when it comes to tipping.

I travel extensively, and the ONLY place where this sort of tipping is 'required' is in the US. These days there are more and more places that are automatically including a 'service charge,' and it's quite common to even see a line on your credit card charge slip where you can write in your tip.

However, as more Americans have been traveling outside US borders, they are carrying their tipping with them, and we see many places in Asia these days putting 'Tip Boxes' next to the cash register. Worse still is that in many small restaurants in S.E. Asia, the employer requires his staff to turn over all tips to him! He then doles out a small percentage to them, keeping the larger slice for himself.

Perhaps it's time for the US to join the rest of the world (adopting the metric system wouldn't hurt either,) and have employers pay their waitstaff instead of requiring customers to do so. There is no doubt that excluding waitstaff from the Minimum Wage Laws helps the employer's bottom line.


Stitchawl

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

I travel extensively, and the ONLY place where this sort of tipping is 'required' is in the US. These days there are more and more places that are automatically including a 'service charge,' and it's quite common to even see a line on your credit card charge slip where you can write in your tip.

However, as more Americans have been traveling outside US borders, they are carrying their tipping with them, and we see many places in Asia these days putting 'Tip Boxes' next to the cash register. Worse still is that in many small restaurants in S.E. Asia, the employer requires his staff to turn over all tips to him! He then doles out a small percentage to them, keeping the larger slice for himself.

Perhaps it's time for the US to join the rest of the world (adopting the metric system wouldn't hurt either,) and have employers pay their waitstaff instead of requiring customers to do so. There is no doubt that excluding waitstaff from the Minimum Wage Laws helps the employer's bottom line.


Stitchawl

As I said:

Offer those same waiters and waitresses that alternative--no tipping, but a basic wage--and see EXACTLY how many take you up on it. I think some of you are seeing the picture from one unique viewpoint that isn't necessarily echoed by the same persons you're trying to "help." (And if bad service means that a waitress doesn't make a great wage on one week, her service will be BETTER the next, won't it? Evening the payment field rewards bad servicepeople and penalizes those who work hard; it's right up there with "pooling tips." )

Hitch

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Hitch

As I said:
Offer those same waiters and waitresses that alternative--no tipping, but a basic wage--and see EXACTLY how many take you up on it. I think some of you are seeing the picture from one unique viewpoint that isn't necessarily echoed by the same persons you're trying to "help."

*cough* The people we are trying to 'help' are NOT the waitstaff. We would like to free entire rest of the population from the extortion forced on us by the employer's of the waitstaff not required to adhere to the Minimum Wage Act. If I were to choose to wait tables, of course I'd opt for the side that said; 'give a wink and a smile, ("Hi-eee! My name is Tiffany, and I'll be your waitress tonight! *giggle and/or jiggle* "Hooters" anyone?) write orders correctly, and don't drop the food in the customer's lap, and get lots of money' too. Nothing like cleavage as an income booster...

However, having lived in a country where doing one's job to the very best of one's ability is expected, and the concept of tipping not required for the salary of the employee, I've seen that it can work very well for both sides. If that is a 'service industry,' it means providing service to the best of one's ability, not to generate tips, but because that is what 'self-respect' is all about. Unfortunately, in the US, doing one's job to the very best of one's ability is the exception, not the rule. We Americans tend to do our jobs to the level that will satisfy the employer, and little more. The exceptional ones rise to the top, but they are few and far between.

In a previous post you stated "I was easily making $150/night, on a regular night (more on weekends), hauling nothing but cocktails.....making $750-$1000 week doesn't sound like the same kind of dough that a Googler makes, but I was barely out of high school, going to school, and it was the 70's. That was a LOT of money." As you say, at this point in time you were just barely out of high school.

At this same time period, an Elementary School or middle school teacher who had already spent four to six years studying and training for their profession, and spent a LOT of money to do so, was lucky to be making $35 a day, teaching all day and spending half their evenings and weekends correcting student papers and planning for the next day's lessons.

Personally, I'd rather see my money used to pay teachers rather than cocktail waitresses. But that's just me.


Stitchawl

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Stitchawl

*cough* The people we are trying to 'help' are NOT the waitstaff. We would like to free entire rest of the population from the extortion forced on us by the employer's of the waitstaff not required to adhere to the Minimum Wage Act. If I were to choose to wait tables, of course I'd opt for the side that said; 'give a wink and a smile, ("Hi-eee! My name is Tiffany, and I'll be your waitress tonight! *giggle and/or jiggle* "Hooters" anyone?) write orders correctly, and don't drop the food in the customer's lap, and get lots of money' too. Nothing like cleavage as an income booster...

Not that you're being sexist, or anything, the assumption being that Tiffany--at whatever restaurant--has to give some T&A in order to be compensated?

However, having lived in a country where doing one's job to the very best of one's ability is expected, and the concept of tipping not required for the salary of the employee, I've seen that it can work very well for both sides. If that is a 'service industry,' it means providing service to the best of one's ability, not to generate tips, but because that is what 'self-respect' is all about. Unfortunately, in the US, doing one's job to the very best of one's ability is the exception, not the rule. We Americans tend to do our jobs to the level that will satisfy the employer, and little more. The exceptional ones rise to the top, but they are few and far between.

You misunderstand me completely. I am, and have repeatedly stated, I'm all in favor of people being remunerated in accordance with their capabilities. It's why I dislike unions; while there was once a reason for collective bargaining, now it simply rewards the slackers. Being a waitress--and I'll address your NEXT paragraph in a moment--isn't slacker work, not if you're doing it right.

In a previous post you stated "I was easily making $150/night, on a regular night (more on weekends), hauling nothing but cocktails.....making $750-$1000 week doesn't sound like the same kind of dough that a Googler makes, but I was barely out of high school, going to school, and it was the 70's. That was a LOT of money." As you say, at this point in time you were just barely out of high school.

At this same time period, an Elementary School or middle school teacher who had already spent four to six years studying and training for their profession, and spent a LOT of money to do so, was lucky to be making $35 a day, teaching all day and spending half their evenings and weekends correcting student papers and planning for the next day's lessons.

Personally, I'd rather see my money used to pay teachers rather than cocktail waitresses. But that's just me.


Stitchawl

That's right--I was just out of high school. However, compared to a teacher, a waitress or waiter doesn't get "better" at it by doing it longer, particularly. Nor does the waiter require a college degree, nor a teaching certificate. You can learn pretty much all you need to know in a short period of time, if you have a brain. Yes, for higher-end restaurants, you need, preferably, to understand cooking, and even wines--but that's not hard to learn, either, at least, not to an appropriate level. Yes, I made good money, but I also hustled my ass for 8 hours every night, leaving after 2:00 a.m., and part of my (and the other waiters/waitresses') jobs was cleanup of the place. I was, in fact, an excellent waitress; fast, nimble, I had perfect recall of every order I took; I didn't spill drinks and I didn't mess up. I emptied ashtrays, brought refills, and was always at the table the moment I saw an eye lifted, and even before. I handled over 40+ drinking tables by myself, in any given night, for the course of the night. Feel free to try it any time you think it's easy work.

(Nor will I talk much about just how much FUN it is to be a young woman waitress in a bar with a bunch of boozehounds. You think that Tiffany is having FUN, batting her eyelashes? While she ducks grabby hands and everything else? You've probably never had a drunken patron waiting for you when you come out of the ladies', to paw your bits, right? Well, trust me: Tiffany has.)

The flip side for the waitperson is that there's not really any upward mobility; a teacher can move to a better-paying school, or become a principal, etc. Waitpersons are essentially doomed to a life on their feet--which also isn't much fun.

Would you feel that a 35-y.o. waitress was "more entitled" to a living wage than one just out of High School? For doing the same job? What if the 20-something was better at it than the 35-y.o.? Is she entitled THEN? Or is only "educated" people that are entitled to earn what a teacher does--someone who works 9 months out of the year? (And that's not to "diss" teachers; but comparing one to the other is a bit ludicrous, in the context of "tipping.") Quite frankly, if anyone in the US gave two hoots about teachers and payment, they'd be supporting charter schools, so that teachers WOULD get paid in accordance with THEIR value, too. (As they, too, would be "tipped" by the people paying for their children's educations, by the tuition payments.) But that's a discussion for another day, and another forum.

I don't feel that paying waiters and waitresses tips is "extortion." In fact, it is in keeping with my general take on the world, that good performance is rewarded. What amazes me is that so many people think that restaurants make so much money that they could afford to pay in wages what a waiter or waitress earns, otherwise, in tips.

I mean, let's run the actual, real-life numbers: what IS the wage for a waiter in a decent restaurant, in Bangkok? Given that you don't tip there? How much per hour? How much is that person that you're not tipping making, per year, compared to what it costs for someone to live--comfortably--there? Can they buy a house on it? Have a family? What are the real numbers?

Hitch

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Not that you're being sexist, or anything, the assumption being that Tiffany--at whatever restaurant--has to give some T&A in order to be compensated?

I tried to get a job waiting tables at Hooters, but they wouldn't hire me. Not enough T&A. I guess you wore a burka when you were a cocktail waitress...

You misunderstand me completely. I am, and have repeatedly stated, I'm all in favor of people being remunerated in accordance with their capabilities. It's why I dislike unions;

That's interesting. It's why I like unions. I never did like working 16-hour days for low wages.

Feel free to try it any time you think it's easy work.

No one ever said waiting tables was easy work. No need to get defensive.

Nor will I talk much about just how much FUN it is to be a young woman waitress in a bar with a bunch of boozehounds. You think that Tiffany is having FUN, batting her eyelashes? While she ducks grabby hands and everything else? You've probably never had a drunken patron waiting for you when you come out of the ladies', to paw your bits, right? Well, trust me: Tiffany has.)

If Tiffany put up with it, than she was a fool. Waiting tables isn't the only job out there. If it was all of us would have done it. Most of us haven't.

Would you feel that a 35-y.o. waitress was "more entitled" to a living wage than one just out of High School?

If she'd been doing it for the past 15 years, and did it well, absolutely yes!

What if the 20-something was better at it than the 35-y.o.? Is she entitled THEN?

Absolutely, yes. Under the salary system, people with skills and abilities increase their earnings. They don't have to depend upon handouts from strangers.

Or is only "educated" people that are entitled to earn what a teacher does--someone who works 9 months out of the year?

A US teacher might 'teach' classes 9 months out of the year, but;
A) during those 9 months puts in 12-16 hour days five to six days a week, and
B) In most states, starts working back at school a month before the students arrive, and doesn't finish for almost a month after the students are done.

I don't feel that paying waiters and waitresses tips is "extortion."

If we are 'required' to leave a generous tip regardless of the service provided, and we are if we wish to get served again in the same restaurant, then we are being extorted. I've even eaten in restaurants in NYC where you had to put your tip on the table BEFORE a waiter would even take your order. THAT is extortion!

In fact, it is in keeping with my general take on the world, that good performance is rewarded. What amazes me is that so many people think that restaurants make so much money that they could afford to pay in wages what a waiter or waitress earns, otherwise, in tips.

Perhaps if you traveled outside the US more, you'd see that it is actually being done in virtually every country.

How much is that person that you're not tipping making, per year, compared to what it costs for someone to live--comfortably--there? Can they buy a house on it? Have a family? What are the real numbers?
Hitch

Instead of numbers, use life-style. The life-style of the average waiter in the US is not 'let's fly to the Bahamas for the weekend, dear. There's nothing good on TV.' A waiter's life is pretty much the same all over the world... Unless working in a top resort area, it's just another job. Enough to pay the rent, 'help' support a family, and maybe take a small vacation now and then. Unfortunately, that vacation is being paid by their customers rather than their employers, and THAT is where it all goes wrong.

Stitchawl

[kindlekitten]

Ok, it's late, or early, and I am once again up at an hour when I should be sleeping. I've been watching this wondering where it would go, I'm only going to address a little right now;

Stitch, Hitch has lived a lot more places (and traveled to) than you are aware of.

First, you've been using this phrase of "required tipping" in the US. I'm not sure where that is coming from. Apologies to all who have had other experiences, but other than notices along the lines of; "parties of over "x" (abd it's usually at least 12) will be automatically be charged "x" gratuity". I've seen that since I was in my early teens, long before this b.s. tax thing came about. As an individual, or with a small party, I have NEVER been required to pay a tip. In fact I'm pretty sure that I have shared that when I traveled all the time for work, I would periodically sacrifice a $20 for the cause of learning about service. I would rip a 20 into quarters periodically . When the food was reasonably good but the service attrocious and I knew not only that I would never be back, but it was a small way too make a statement, I'd leave a ripped quarter of a 20 as the tip. Hopefully, if there were even a few grey cells running around in the brain housing group, they would realize that I wasn't cheap, after all, I'd already committed a 20, but due to the desecration of the bill, they couldn't do anything with it. This was my major signal that they, by their service had desecrated my dining experience. Since the end of my constant work travel, I've reduced my sacrificed bill to a 5. Not making as much.

I've known career waitstaff that do indeed make between 50-100 a year. These are people at unique restaurants that are closely scrutinized before they come on, and everyone knows that their service, knowledge, etc is what has gotten them to where they are. These are a special class of servers and represent the higher end Hitch is describing, and quite honesty tend to more often be male. The mid range servers, that are at the chains like, oh, I dunno, olive garden and the like ( where I never eat ) are going to get the 15-20% tips. These are the supplemental incomes, probably not the primary earners. Then there are the stand alone, family owned/greasy spoons. .. regulars probably tip 15-20, traveers 10-15.

Where I'm expected to tip in the US;
Manicurist/pedicurest better tip if I expect to go back and have decent service. And I'm already paying about 50-60 an hour (at least and depending how much in having done, they can cram a lot of services together)
Beautician, oh, hell yeah! Cut and color? 150 to 300 charge. If you want to come back again and Make sure you don't walk out bald or with green hair, your tip will be well north of 30.

Massuse; the legal kind, but not one your insurance is paying for, about 35 and that's with a 75-100 hour charge

OTHER EXPECTATIONS;
mailman once a year at least
Newspaper, same. Garbage, same. If you have regular lawn service, same.

OH! I FORGOT!
Motel maids, bell boys, homes you visit where there is hired help that isn't necessarily full time, taxis

WHERE I'VE BEEN TIPPED AND DIDN'T EXPECT IT;
Ski instructor
riding instructor
VERY LAST PLACE I EXPECTED IT;
White Water Guide, reason;
"You didn't let us die "

So, it's late/early. I need some more sleep, and will address other countries later.

You 2 take your corners. I like and respect both opinions.

[Stitchawl]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

Stitch, Hitch has lived a lot more places (and traveled to) than you are aware of.

Really? I'm surprised that she hasn't noticed that it's different outside the US.

First, you've been using this phrase of "required tipping" in the US. I'm not sure where that is coming from.

Obviously it's not an absolute requirement, except of course in the places that now do automatically add it in as a service charge, or as you state, with groups over a certain size... as in absolute requirement. No... I mean 'required' the way you state at the end of your post, where if you expect to return to a location and get any kind of decent service (i.e. not walking out of the salon with green hair, or finding a rat in your soup,) you are 'required' to leave a satisfactory tip. If I used the word 'obligated' instead of 'required,' would that sit better?

I have NEVER been required to pay a tip. In fact I'm pretty sure that I have shared that when I traveled all the time for work, I would periodically sacrifice a $20 for the cause of learning about service. I would rip a 20 into quarters periodically . When the food was reasonably good but the service attrocious and I knew not only that I would never be back, but it was a small way too make a statement, I'd leave a ripped quarter of a 20 as the tip.

... and THAT is the point. You are required (obligated) to leave a tip or else don't come back! No, there isn't a sign that says 'YOU ARE REQUIRED TO LEAVE A TIP.' But we all know what will happen if you don't.

The mid range servers, that are at the chains like, oh, I dunno, olive garden and the like ( where I never eat ) are going to get the 15-20% tips. These are the supplemental incomes, probably not the primary earners.

Which is a shame too... If they were paid a decent wage by their employers, just like any other worker in other industries, they too might be the primary earners in a family. Just as they are in so many other countries. Instead, they have to rely upon the largess of the customer's hand-outs just to make enough to get by. Why shouldn't their employer pay them a decent wage, just as every other industry does. We know for a fact that the prices of the meals don't have to go through the roof to do so. We see it every time we enter a restaurant in every other country in the world. Is America so different?

Manicurist/pedicurest better tip if I expect to go back and have decent service. And I'm already paying about 50-60 an hour

Yes, a requirement if you expect to go back. Doesn't this bother you? They do their job well, get paid a very nice salary, and yet you have to give them still more money because they did what they were already being paid to do.

Beautician, oh, hell yeah! Cut and color? 150 to 300 charge. If you want to come back again and Make sure you don't walk out bald or with green hair, your tip will be well north of 30.

Again, a requirement if you expect to go back.

The point is, a 'gratuity' isn't gratuitous if you have to pay it just to get served a second time. It's a hostage payment. In the US, the custom is well established, as it is in major chain hotels in foreign countries where American visitors stay. Get away from the places where we Americans go for vacations and you see almost no tipping 'expected.' Tips ARE given gratuitously for extra special service received. They just aren't expected or required for good service the next time. There is a big difference between freely offering a gratuity for service over and above the norm, and a bribe to allow you to return to some service offering safely.

Stitchawl

[kindlekitten]

Just a quick comment after not much more sleep... I felt that I was held hostage by the tipping mentality much more from the word go in Mexico going back to the early 70s, traveling with my folks than I ever have here. This is up to and including making sure that you had a car in the morning.

So, now, after not enough sleep, I'm going to go welcome my first Boulder morning and see if I an ready to face the day

[ProfCrash]

I have done a fair amount of travelling and am well aware of the difference in pay and expectation of tipping.

When I lived in Italy, my Italian friends wanted me to go out to dinner with them because the presence of an American meant better service and food. Why? Because Americans typically left tips even though the gratuity was already included in the tip. So the servers strived to provide better service because they would make more money.

I have found the same thing to be true throughout Europe. I know that I don't have to tip because I have travelled and I check the travel guides before going anywhere. I don't tip in places where it is not the norm for that reason. I still get better service then the natives in the restaurant, you can tell by the number of refills and check ins and the time of food delivery.

This tells me that many people are not giving you their best effort when tips are not expected.

Tips are not a guarantee of good service but they do seem to improve service. I don't think that you would be able to pay a waiter enough to get the type of service people want when they go out. Minimum wage is not going to draw people into the business.

I don't mind tipping because I will leave a smaller tip when the service is bad but I don't buy for a second that the service would be as good without the tip.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

<---snip--->

Where I'm expected to tip in the US;
Manicurist/pedicurest better tip if I expect to go back and have decent service. And I'm already paying about 50-60 an hour (at least and depending how much in having done, they can cram a lot of services together)
Beautician, oh, hell yeah! Cut and color? 150 to 300 charge. If you want to come back again and Make sure you don't walk out bald or with green hair, your tip will be well north of 30.

Massuse; the legal kind, but not one your insurance is paying for, about 35 and that's with a 75-100 hour charge

OTHER EXPECTATIONS;
mailman once a year at least
Newspaper, same. Garbage, same. If you have regular lawn service, same.

OH! I FORGOT!
Motel maids, bell boys, homes you visit where there is hired help that isn't necessarily full time, taxis

WHERE I'VE BEEN TIPPED AND DIDN'T EXPECT IT;
Ski instructor
riding instructor
VERY LAST PLACE I EXPECTED IT;
White Water Guide, reason;
"You didn't let us die "

So, it's late/early. I need some more sleep, and will address other countries later.

You 2 take your corners. I like and respect both opinions.

You forgot poodle groomers!

[pdurrant]

Moderator Notice

The discussion of tipping should now cease, or move to the P&R forum. Thank you.