Paragraph Spacing Issue Similar to Phyllis

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

HOWEVER: we all know that there are a bajillion ways to make a book. Your way, my way, Wolfie the Curmudgeon's way...within certain reasonable standards, they all work. (Not counting emoties. I'm still recovering from that one.)

;-)

Hitch

I think you'd like my way. My way is the minimalist way. I start off deleting all the unused style's as a lot of eBooks uses a catch all CSS that is just full of unused styles. Sometimes more unused styles then used. So I do use <p> for a standard paragraph with a simple indent. Nothing special. It works in every viewer I've used it on unless some viewer setting overrides it. I even find things like <p class="chapter"> to be not good (IMHO) for chapter titles. I prefer a plain old <h2>.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rosshalde

I found this code on Sigil's FAQ
body, div, p, h1, h2, h3, h4 { margin: 0; padding: 0; }
I put that in the css and applied it to all my html files, but no dice still.
any other suggestions?

Can you please post a sample of your ePub? Just cut out most of it and post a sample that shows this problem.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by theducks

folk
I prefer to explicitly define my <p> tags only because I don't use only one style for <p>. If I see a raw <p>, I goofed

And, no, I never intended to infer that one way would work and the other would not.
What I was trying to convey is the Device may ignore some styling in general, No mater how good your code, it ignores your CSS wishes

If the program you are using ignores p in CSS, then it's broken. That is valid CSS code.

It's actually easier to see your other p styles when you have just <p>. Also, it makes the eBook smaller as you don't have all that extra code that you really don't need.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If the program you are using ignores p in CSS, then it's broken. That is valid CSS code.

It's actually easier to see your other p styles when you have just <p>. Also, it makes the eBook smaller as you don't have all that extra code that you really don't need.

You just don't get it. It has little to do if it is a P or DIV or h3...
IT IGNORES USER STYLES for the FACTORY GARBAGE
at least, some let you override the override (AKA use publishers styles which is OFF by default)

[Notjohn]

I tremble to enter this battle of formatting giants, but note that (as was said in another thread) html formatting is a matter of pairs. If you have a style in the style sheet, it won't be used unless the body of the book refers to that style; contrawise, there's no point calling for a class in the body of the book unless there's a matching style in the style sheet.

Personally, I'm with the <p> faction. You are welcome to borrow or modify my style sheet from http://notjohnkdp.blogspot.com/2013/...yle-sheet.html

[Toxaris]

Get rid of the white-space: pre-wrap. That can and will give you issues. If the stylesheet you showed is really from Pages, Apple should fire them. That is one rubbish stylesheet with lot of redundant coding.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by theducks

You just don't get it. It has little to do if it is a P or DIV or h3...
IT IGNORES USER STYLES for the FACTORY GARBAGE
at least, some let you override the override (AKA use publishers styles which is OFF by default)

That is clearly a problem in whatever program you are using to view your ePub. It should not ignore your CSS. What broken program are you using that doesn't work right?

[theducks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That is clearly a problem in whatever program you are using to view your ePub. It should not ignore your CSS. What broken program are you using that doesn't work right?

NOT ONCE did I say that I was using I-books, Nook or any of the problem kids that frequently are mentioned in these forums.

I was advising a newbie of possible gotchas from some big name device suppliers.

The only known issues with my standard program (MRSDK) are the well known ones:
1) Ignore a CSS sheet containing syntax errors. User failure to validate problem.

2) Centering of some objects like HR ; I use a workaround

Moon + Pro behaves (on my TAB)
My K4 mostly behaves (I hacked the words per line setting file. Small :40 was not small enough for me:10)

[DiapDealer]

The style="white-space:pre-wrap" attribute in the first div tag inside the body (post #7): chuck that thing out the window.

Pages always adds that white-space:pre-wrap crap somewhere and it always fouls something up when opened/edited with anything other than Pages.

EDIT: Sorry ... missed that Toxaris had already called this one.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by theducks

NOT ONCE did I say that I was using I-books, Nook or any of the problem kids that frequently are mentioned in these forums.

I was advising a newbie of possible gotchas from some big name device suppliers.

The only known issues with my standard program (MRSDK) are the well known ones:
1) Ignore a CSS sheet containing syntax errors. User failure to validate problem.

2) Centering of some objects like HR ; I use a workaround

Moon + Pro behaves (on my TAB)
My K4 mostly behaves (I hacked the words per line setting file. Small :40 was not small enough for me:10)

I don't think it's appropriate to tell others to not use a given valid styles that will work across all programs that respect CSS. <p> works and it is valid in the CSS and thus, there's no need to use <p class="thiscllssnotneededatall">.

I've used iBooks and I own a nook STR and both work with <p> and the accompanying CSS style. If a program does not respect the CSS, then don't use it and find one that does. I'm not telling someone not to use <p> instead of <p class="indent"> just because there are programs put there that are broken. Those broken programs are not ones hat get tested against eBooks anyway.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

To me, from a trouble-shooting standpoint, I'm happier if I know that all the plain old, plain old p's are just that: the base. Whatever I decided that would be. Then I know that everything else is, well, something ELSE.

Yep yep, I agree completely. Have your clean, minimalist BASE, and only make a class when you have an exception to that base (for example, smaller text in a copyright page, adding a margin up top, aligning something on the right, poetry indentation, ...).

Perhaps it is because I have seen too many horrors of spaghetti code. I always hated seeing these bloated EPUBs with <p class="ind"> in every single paragraph, with only the first paragraphs of a chapter being a <p class="noind">, and about 12 different "ind" classes to handle every case under the sun (in a blockquote, in a footnote, in a blockquote in a footnote, ...).

Originally Posted by Hitch

HOWEVER: we all know that there are a bajillion ways to make a book. Your way, my way, Wolfie the Curmudgeon's way...within certain reasonable standards, they all work.

Yep yep. There is a million ways to tackle the same problem, important thing is that you apply it throughout the book CONSISTENTLY. This allows you to easily go back in the future and tweak it if needed, or allows tinkerers to easily go in and change it to THEIR preferences easily.

Side Note: Reminds me a lot like the typography/ellipsis chat we had in this topic:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=206482

The ellipsis character or a "manual" ellipsis with non-breaking spaces isn't wrong, just make sure you apply it consistently.

Other Side Note: JSWolf, buddy ol' pal... you should include multi-quotes in your posts! Instead of making 3 posts one right after the other, just include all three quotes + comments in a single one! Makes the forum much cleaner + easier to follow.

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I tremble to enter this battle of formatting giants, but note that (as was said in another thread) html formatting is a matter of pairs. If you have a style in the style sheet, it won't be used unless the body of the book refers to that style; contrawise, there's no point calling for a class in the body of the book unless there's a matching style in the style sheet.

Thanks for that input Notjohn, and never "tremble" when giving input on the forums. All questions/input is important! Especially for all the lurkers + people who stumble upon these topics in the future. There is probably another person out there who was having the same exact thoughts, but was just too afraid to post.

Although I have to say, SOMETIMES, you can leave code in there that can be used for semantic/organizational purposes, even if there is no reference in the CSS stylesheet. For example, wrapping Greek words in a "greek" span:

[...] (<span class="greek" xml:lang="grc">λείβω</span>, <i>labor</i>, <i>lapsus</i>, to flow or slip downward, a lapsing; <span class="greek" xml:lang="grc">λοβός</span>, <i>globus</i>, lobe, globe; also lap, flap, and many other words); [...]

I don't necessarily have to have anything SPECIAL being done with the greek words, but having the empty class there does add some sense if you are looking at the code itself. (And allows you in the future to easily add in a special Greek font, or easily be able to track down all instances of Greek words within the book if you wanted).

Similar thing with inline math. You could mark all of that up with a <span class="math">, even though you won't necessarily be doing anything special with it in the EPUB. (I have been meaning to implement this in the future books... I still have to give it some thought):

<p>The equation <span class="math">2x + 1 = 5</span> is an example of an inline equation.</p>

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by theducks

<snipped, discussed below>

2) Centering of some objects like HR ; I use a workaround

Moon + Pro behaves (on my TAB)
My K4 mostly behaves (I hacked the words per line setting file. Small :40 was not small enough for me:10)

Ducky, my sweet:

Sorry, I'm not following that part, about the centering, in the context of this conversation, at all.

Honestly, I don't think I can ever remember having any device ignore a p tag with whatever formatting I'd applied, or we'd applied. I mean, a hunnerd bajillion years ago, it used to be that for MOBI, a naked p was a first-line indent, no top/bottom margin p. And that would be the default, unless you specifically altered it. (Hitch note of braggadocio: Amazon CALLED me to find out how I was making flush-left paras, in 2009 or early 2010. HA. Okay, chest-thumping over. That was my 15minutes, in this line of work.).

BUT, even that's changed, if someone wants to force the issue. In fact, I think that our standard CSS, in-house, has a smaller first-line indent, than does the unaltered p for Amazon. And honestly: I don't remember EVER seeing any of the other readers out there--you know the majors, Nook, iBooks, Sony, or the browser-readers, ePUBreader for FF or REadium--ever ignore our house CSS for however we'd coded it for p.

Originally Posted by theducks

NOT ONCE did I say that I was using I-books, Nook or any of the problem kids that frequently are mentioned in these forums.

I was advising a newbie of possible gotchas from some big name device suppliers.

The only known issues with my standard program (MRSDK) are the well known ones:
1) Ignore a CSS sheet containing syntax errors. User failure to validate problem.

Yes, but wouldn't this just not work across the board? Naked p or not? I mean...if you have a naked p class that you've styled, to be, say, flush left, versus a class called flush, styled the same way, won't the same error affect both?


Now: that doesn't mean that I can't be WRONG. Of course I could. Hell, for all I remember, lrb would do that. But as far as I know, as of today, you can set the p to whatever your main body style is going to be (flush left, top-padding, indented, with/without padding, whatever) and it should work. if it doesn't, something ELSE hinky is going on.

Although again, happy to find out otherwise and to learn that I need to pay attention to another device about which I currently know nothing, or haven't seen that result.

Respectfully, w/hugs and kisses,
Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I tremble to enter this battle of formatting giants, but note that (as was said in another thread) html formatting is a matter of pairs. If you have a style in the style sheet, it won't be used unless the body of the book refers to that style; contrawise, there's no point calling for a class in the body of the book unless there's a matching style in the style sheet.

Personally, I'm with the <p> faction. You are welcome to borrow or modify my style sheet from http://notjohnkdp.blogspot.com/2013/...yle-sheet.html

nj:

You are bold enough to sell a book on the topic of formatting, along with your blog, so I daresay, you are bold enough to post here. Look at the bright side--here, no matter what, we don't ask for our money back.

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Look at the bright side--here, no matter what, we don't ask for our money back.

I want my money back!

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I want my money back!

NO!