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Old 10-13-2014, 02:57 PM   #136
HarryT
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
While I agree that giving someone an eBook is not "recommending," I will mention that -- in the old days -- when someone was done with a paperback book, it was often passed on to the someone else. And while that may have been, technically, a "lost sale" it was also introducing a reader to a new author which, in turn, could lead to a new customer for the author.
Of course, but that's a totally different scenario. You're not creating an additional copy of the book in the process: that's the fundamental difference with ebooks. When you give someone else a copy, you still have it yourself. Two people have copies of the book, where previously only one did.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:04 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by twowheels View Post
And by this you show yourself to suffer the same faulty thinking. Many recipes are also copyrighted.

(not judging, just pointing it out)
Actually, recipes themselves cannot be copyrighted. From the US Copyright website:

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Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.
So, a recipe isn't protected by copyright, although accompanying text, photographs, etc, may of course be.

Last edited by HarryT; 10-13-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:21 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by rcentros View Post
While I agree that giving someone an eBook is not "recommending," I will mention that -- in the old days -- when someone was done with a paperback book, it was often passed on to the someone else. And while that may have been, technically, a "lost sale" it was also introducing a reader to a new author which, in turn, could lead to a new customer for the author.
Yes, I get that and that is akin to handing someone the reader with the book on it (in today's digital world.) I'm not saying the person did it knowing that it "cost me a sale" or intending for it to cost me a sale. I understand the urge and the 'old' habit of sharing a paperback. That's my point. If it had had DRM on it, the casual sharing wouldn't have happened. Neither party even knows what DRM is (well, one of them knows now). The sharing wouldn't have worked. The relative might have asked me about it and I could have explained. The other party, had she been interested enough, would have bought it. Or not. Had she not bought it, I'd be right where I am now, no sale, nothing lost, nothing gained.

And again--this was not introducing a new reader to my work. She knew all about my work.

I recognize what "discovery" is and that it can be useful, but in that case, there is Lendleme and other lending sites that fulfill that purpose in many cases (certainly in my case if not the big 6). Buy a kindle copy and lend it that way. There are ways to discover books without inadvertently sending out random copies. People who "give" copies away may think they are helping the author by helping spread the word, but the real way to help an author is to gift a copy of the book. If you (general you) don't like the book enough to gift the copy, then it's easy--don't give it.

I realize not everyone is going to agree with my stance and I accept that. But I felt compelled to tell my side of the story. It's okay if you don't agree; I just wanted my feelings out there.

I do gift copies of my book quite often so that people have a chance to "discover" me. I have no heartburn with Lendleme and other sites. I often list my own books there so that people can borrow them.

It's a huge, huge morale hit when I see people post things like "I figured out how to send this book. Do you want a copy? I'll give it to you!" Or a more recent "Scandal" where there was a rash of returns going on--and blogs and threads saying "Amazon really doesn't care how many books you return. I've read several series now and returned each book and they haven't said a word. As long as you're within the seven days..."

Sure, that catches up with them. But it does nothing for a writer's motivation, let me tell you.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:25 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Actually, recipes themselves cannot be copyrighted. From the US Copyright website:



So, a recipe isn't protected by copyright, although accompanying text, photographs, etc, may of course be.
No, they aren't, but the books they are in usually are so I took that as the point. In general, they are "sort of protected" because they are usually copied out of a book, but no one thinks twice about it. They will write down the bits they need and send it willy-nilly all over.

And that is where DRM can help an author when it comes to casual sharing. It stops willy before it becomes nilly.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:49 PM   #140
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I do share eBooks. But I only share with those I know are not going to give them out. That would just be family.

I know pBooks do sometimes go further then just sharing eBooks with family. And you know what, it's women that do the sharing. They buy a pBook, share it with friends who then share it with other friends and so on. Men don't do that nearly as much as women.

If I share an eBook with my mother, she wouldn't know how to remove the eBook from her Reader to give to someone else. So I know I'm not contributing to the eBook getting out by casual sharing.

Even if the eBook didn't make it on the net to be shared, it could get out a lot as you give it to one friend who gives it to another friend who gives to two more friends and so on.

The biggest problem with DRM is that it does restrict what you can do with an eBook. If we only had ePub and not Mobi and KF8, it would make life a lot more easy. I do know some that have learned to remove DRM because the eBooks are not compatible. They learned to strip because the ePub is not compatible with the Kindle and the AZW3 is not compatible with the ePub Reader. So actually, it's Amazon & B&N helping to contribute to this because they decided to go with different DRM and/or a different format. So you the techie buys a Kobo and because you feel the Kindle is easier to use for your Mother, she gets a Kindle. So you buy an ePub eBook and then you cannot give it to your mother, so you learn to strip the DRM when you might not have otherwise. Then you think of giving it to your friend down the road who gives it out and so on. I'm not saying it's totally Amazon & B&N's fault, but they don't help at all.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:55 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
That lending someone your entire reader does not avoid piracy: it is itself a form of piracy if you lend outside the terms permitted by the bookstore, which is generally intended to be your immediate family.
I have specifically asked Amazon this, and they're happy for anyone to read your books, so long as they do it on an authorised device.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:56 PM   #142
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If my carelessness results in a loss to someone, I'm struggling to understand how I could be considered not to be responsible for that loss. The fact that I didn't do it maliciously, in no way changes the outcome of the event.

You seem to be arguing that you don't want the source of pirated books to be trackable, for fear of being held accountable for your actions?
Let's say you have a Kindle and it gets stolen. You have eBooks on there with a watermark and they get copied off and released on the net. You get them traced back to you and you get sued and have to pay the damages. Do you think that's fair? This is not carelessness on your part and it's not fair that you'd get in trouble for something someone else did.
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Old 10-13-2014, 03:56 PM   #143
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I know pBooks do sometimes go further then just sharing eBooks with family. And you know what, it's women that do the sharing. They buy a pBook, share it with friends who then share it with other friends and so on. Men don't do that nearly as much as women.
What. The actual. F***?

Even if you truly (and unfortunately) believe that tripe, Jon, why would you think sharing it was a good idea?

Wow!
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:00 PM   #144
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In addition to that, it's a huge morale issue. If people close to me do not even understand my livelihood how much easier is it for mistakes to be made by others? Pretty easy.
I do agree that people are largely unaware of the moral issues involved in copying digital media. And in your particular anecdote, I agree that sounds like a probably lost sale.

The big question is whether casual sharing gets you more sales from new readers than you lose through casual sharing between people who have already read one or more of your books. I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:08 PM   #145
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I do agree that people are largely unaware of the moral issues involved in copying digital media. And in your particular anecdote, I agree that sounds like a probably lost sale.

The big question is whether casual sharing gets you more sales from new readers than you lose through casual sharing between people who have already read one or more of your books. I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.
No, no one knows the answer--but for those who say, "Sharing can get you a new reader, so really it's helping." Well, we can't really know that either. Stalemate.

And I wasn't talking morals. I was talking my morale when it happens.
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:26 PM   #146
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No, no one knows the answer--but for those who say, "Sharing can get you a new reader, so really it's helping." Well, we can't really know that either. Stalemate.

And I wasn't talking morals. I was talking my morale when it happens.
What do you mean we can't know? What about doing empirical studies? What about looking at the studies that have been done?
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:38 PM   #147
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What do you mean we can't know? What about doing empirical studies? What about looking at the studies that have been done?
On an individual basis, that person cannot know if it will result in a sale or future sales. They may believe it, but it does not change the fact that unless they follow up with the person, they cannot know. And so it is the same thing if I were to claim "every shared book is a lost sale for me." The truth is, every shared book is probably not a lost sale. And every shared book is probably not a new fan/new sale.

So we have the argument that goes round and round. And all I can state that for me personally, as an author, I ask people not to share. Feel free to review, lend via lendleme type sites or Amazon or B&N, tell people about the book, blog it, ask your library to buy it, etc. Please don't share it by way of copying and "giving" my books away. My attitude may be keeping me from getting new fans. I'll take my chances.

If people want to try my work for free, there are numerous chances at my blog store via free short stories by myself and other writers who have chosen to make their short stories available there. There is sampling available at all the retailers. If a reviewer wants a review copy, they only need to ask/show intent to honestly review.

Both my series are available in print at around 6 libraries. Request an Interlibrary loan.

There are many ways to get legal copies.
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Old 10-13-2014, 04:56 PM   #148
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On an individual basis, that person cannot know if it will result in a sale or future sales.
What do you mean?

It seems you are saying that if a drug cure an illness 99% of the cases then we cannot know if it will work in the individual case so we should not take the drug.

If we empirically show that friend-sharing of books increases sales in most cases in the long run then it seems to me that the rational thing is to be happy about sharing.
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Old 10-13-2014, 05:12 PM   #149
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withdrawn for rethinking
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Old 10-13-2014, 05:13 PM   #150
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With all due respect to authors and their right to be paid for their work, I believe the practice of "casually sharing books" to be far too ingrained in our reading culture/history for there to be any hope of a renaissance simply because of a medium shift from physical to digital.

Any publisher or author who truly believes their ultimate success/failure hinges on changing that cultural mindset (or on educating the masses on the differences between handing a book to someone and copying a file for them) should probably consider not producing ebooks at all. I don't say that to be mean, I just honestly believe it.

We have always shared our favorite stories/authors with those close to us, and we will very likely always want/try to continue to do so. Whether via paper or electrons. I've tried really hard, but I just can't view it as a "bad" thing.
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