Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't? - Page 6

ApK · 10-08-2014, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNefario

If you define fantasy as that stuff that looks like LotR then you could probably argue that it's all derivative of Tolkien, since if it isn't then it isn't fantasy. Just like the old syllogism beloved of SF fans: SF is crap; this isn't crap; therefore this isn't SF.

Yup, that's the No True Scotsman fallacy. I was thinking the same thing when the OP first stated his father's argument.

ArmorDog · 10-08-2014, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pulpmeister

R A Lafferty: his fantasy has no resemblance to Tolkein in the slightest. Lafferty was predominantly a short story writer, but wrote a series of novels such as Fourth Mansions, and The Devil is Dead trilogy (which includes a sub-trilogy Melchisedech).

To get the flavour of his short stories, try Nine Hundred Grandmothers.

Just expect to spend thousands of dollars buying up old editions of his work.

Every couple of years people make a big noise about reprinting his stuff but (aside from the occasional small run which sells out instantly) nothing ever happens.

Calenorn · 10-08-2014, 03:49 PM

... and Tolkien is derivative of William Morris. Take "The House of the Wolfings," mix in a cup of Beowulf, and you're halfway there. Rusticate the tradition of faerie stories into Hobbits, and you can see the finish line.

But don't forget that Tolkien was a gifted narrative writer. To engage readers in a story as long as The Lord of the Rings, you have to have some excellent writing chops. Many of his imitators lacked that, and it shows.

crich70 · 10-08-2014, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calenorn

... and Tolkien is derivative of William Morris. Take "The House of the Wolfings," mix in a cup of Beowulf, and you're halfway there. Rusticate the tradition of faerie stories into Hobbits, and you can see the finish line.

But don't forget that Tolkien was a gifted narrative writer. To engage readers in a story as long as The Lord of the Rings, you have to have some excellent writing chops. Many of his imitators lacked that, and it shows.

And we must not forget Prof. Tolkien's day job. He was a prof. of Languages which means he knew how to tweak real languages to his purpose to form part of the backbone of his mythology. He started with that (if I remember my reading correctly) and then built the cultures of his imagined races of Elves, Men, Orcs, & Dwarves upon that. Rather than having a few made up words that were almost an afterthought he built up the societies of his imagined peoples after he came up with their languages.

conan50 · 10-08-2014, 04:20 PM

In the 19th and early 20th century, anthropologists, ethnologists, historians, linguists, and translators did a great deal of work trying to discover and collect myths and folklore, stories from all around the world. It is why we have so many great public domain works of mythology, folktales, and the classics. Along with various translations of Homer's works and Beowulf, for instance, and numerous retellings of myths and folktales. I think both William Morris and J.R.R. Tolkien followed in that tradition, with Tolkien being bold enough to try and create a new mythology influenced by earlier works. The fact he succeeded so well is why we can have this discussion about his influence. But he is hardly the progenitor of it all. He was just very successful.
edit: it is interesting that both Tolkien and Morris tried their hand at translating Beowulf. That story still resonates, and some modern movies make me think of Beowulf and Grendel, the "Alien" franchise for instance..

Geralt · 10-09-2014, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Does anyone know of a good listing of fantasy novels by order of date of publication?

You can go here: http://www.magicdragon.com/UltimateSF/timeline.html
You can find sf and fantasy there. Mostly sf I think.

varlog · 10-11-2014, 02:57 PM

Going back to OP original question: nobody here have mentioned work of Haruki Murakami. It is high fantasy (certainly not SF) and has nothing to do with Tolkien.

Geralt · 10-11-2014, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varlog

Going back to OP original question: nobody here have mentioned work of Haruki Murakami. It is high fantasy (certainly not SF) and has nothing to do with Tolkien.

Murakami works with magic realism, which is so far away from high fantasy as possible, and it belongs barely to fantasy genre.

I don't even consider him as fantasy writer.
He's as contemporary as they come with elements of magic realism.

varlog · 10-11-2014, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

Murakami works with magic realism, which is so far away from high fantasy as possible, and it belongs barely to fantasy genre.

I don't even consider him as fantasy writer.
He's as contemporary as they come with elements of magic realism.

Now it is semantics again. What is the definition of "fantasy"?. First sentence from Wikipedia: "Fantasy is a genre of fiction that commonly uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme, or setting". Does Murakami qualify?
I'm a fan of SF (first) and fantasy (second). Emphatically Murakami (whom I like very much) lays in my drawer labeled FANTASY, beside Tolkien (whose "The Lord of the Rings" I like very much,was my teenage book). Yes, Murakami is quite different and contemporary - but if you don't define fantasy as "Tolkien-like", it is fantasy.
What I find so fantastic about Murakami: that he is just an hair width beside reality - which Tolkien, of course, was not.

DiapDealer · 10-11-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by varlog

It is high fantasy (certainly not SF) and has nothing to do with Tolkien.

I believe it might have been the addition of "High" that you included in front of your "Fantasy" that drew the disagreement. Not that there's still not subjective opinion and personal semantics involved when determining what should--or shouldn't--qualify as High Fantasy. But I don't think you'd have too many backing you on the Murakami as High Fantasy front. Fantasy--sure. Joining such magical-realism practitioners as Marquez, Allende, Powers, and maybe even Gaiman. Fantasy is pretty huge--and I, for one, have no problem with it encompassing Magical Realism. But "High Fantasy" is a fairly narrowly defined subset of Fantasy. My opinion, at least.

Geralt · 10-11-2014, 05:21 PM

I regard fantasy as part of speculative fiction. SF and horror are also part of this. Contemporary fiction isn't part of it. Murakami is contemporary writer, not a fantasy one.

DiapDealer · 10-11-2014, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

I regard fantasy as part of speculative fiction. SF and horror are also part of this. Contemporary fiction isn't part of it. Murakami is contemporary writer, not a fantasy one.

Fair enough.
Although most definitions of "contemporary fiction" I've seen, specify that it usually doesn't bring any "elements of fantasy." Which in my opinion, would then bar much of Murakami's work (and any magical-realism) from being called contemporary fiction. But there's always border-straddling, genre-bending exceptions that could be argued back and forth indefinitely. And in the end, they're just labels that everyone adjusts occasionally to suit their own personal interpretations anyway. *shrugs*

Geralt · 10-11-2014, 05:42 PM

Murakami uses fantastical elements, I don't disagree with that. But his works are most certainly NOT high fantasy.
Now whether magical realism belongs more to speculative fiction or contemporary is open for debate.
Personally I think some writers like Gaiman are fantasy writers, but he uses mythology as well. But Murakami writes primarily as contemporary writer even though he uses fantastical elements. IMO.

DiapDealer · 10-11-2014, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

Murakami uses fantastical elements, I don't disagree with that. But his works are most certainly NOT high fantasy.
Now whether magical realism belongs more to speculative fiction or contemporary is open for debate.

You'll get no disagreement from me. I believe I said pretty-much the same things in my two posts.

varlog · 10-11-2014, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I believe it might have been the addition of "High" that you included in front of your "Fantasy" that drew the disagreement.

High is there because I really like Murakami. Very much! It is contemporary fantasy which makes one think.

Marquez and Gaiman in the same sentence

?

10-08-2014, 03:49 PM	#78
Calenorn Brash Fumbler Posts: 1,203 Karma: 9224939 Join Date: May 2013 Device: NST, Kobo Mini	On the Shoulders of Giants ... and Tolkien is derivative of William Morris. Take "The House of the Wolfings," mix in a cup of Beowulf, and you're halfway there. Rusticate the tradition of faerie stories into Hobbits, and you can see the finish line. But don't forget that Tolkien was a gifted narrative writer. To engage readers in a story as long as The Lord of the Rings, you have to have some excellent writing chops. Many of his imitators lacked that, and it shows.

10-08-2014, 04:20 PM	#80
conan50 Fanatic Posts: 597 Karma: 14054112 Join Date: Jun 2014 Device: kindle	In the 19th and early 20th century, anthropologists, ethnologists, historians, linguists, and translators did a great deal of work trying to discover and collect myths and folklore, stories from all around the world. It is why we have so many great public domain works of mythology, folktales, and the classics. Along with various translations of Homer's works and Beowulf, for instance, and numerous retellings of myths and folktales. I think both William Morris and J.R.R. Tolkien followed in that tradition, with Tolkien being bold enough to try and create a new mythology influenced by earlier works. The fact he succeeded so well is why we can have this discussion about his influence. But he is hardly the progenitor of it all. He was just very successful. edit: it is interesting that both Tolkien and Morris tried their hand at translating Beowulf. That story still resonates, and some modern movies make me think of Beowulf and Grendel, the "Alien" franchise for instance.. Last edited by conan50; 10-08-2014 at 04:26 PM.

10-11-2014, 05:42 PM	#88
Geralt Witcher Posts: 933 Karma: 7321117 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Swamp. Slaying Drowners. Device: Kindle PW2	Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't? Murakami uses fantastical elements, I don't disagree with that. But his works are most certainly NOT high fantasy. Now whether magical realism belongs more to speculative fiction or contemporary is open for debate. Personally I think some writers like Gaiman are fantasy writers, but he uses mythology as well. But Murakami writes primarily as contemporary writer even though he uses fantastical elements. IMO.

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10-11-2014, 02:57 PM	#82
varlog actually it is /var/log Posts: 341 Karma: 2994236 Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: usually Europa Device: prs t1	Going back to OP original question: nobody here have mentioned work of Haruki Murakami. It is high fantasy (certainly not SF) and has nothing to do with Tolkien.

10-11-2014, 05:21 PM	#86
Geralt Witcher Posts: 933 Karma: 7321117 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Swamp. Slaying Drowners. Device: Kindle PW2	I regard fantasy as part of speculative fiction. SF and horror are also part of this. Contemporary fiction isn't part of it. Murakami is contemporary writer, not a fantasy one.