Unutterably Silly Roomba Kitteh

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Good to know. I got the impression (from somewhere, not from you) that the French were really big on preserving the French language (of course, trying to "preserve" a language is like trying to preserve a human being ... you end up with something that is dead and dry).

well... the Académie is big on preserving the language, yes ; but that is not so much from the invention of words (there is an incredibly rich and varied tradition of inventive argot languages in french and litterary mozzling of the finest kind) as it is from the "contamination" of french by english words. on the one hand, this is silly, because languages are always borrowing from other languages and it enriches them ; on the other hand, it can be a bit comprehensible, because it's true that sometimes out of laziness or because it's "hype" people will begin to use an english word for something which already has a perfectly good (sometimes better) name in french (we had a discussion about this phenomenon too before... see the despised "bullet points"). they tried to keep us from saying "weekend" (fin de semaine), "hotdog" (chien chaud), "email" (courriel), "spam" (pourriel). it didn't work out for them. they never tried to prevent anyone from saying "trucmuche" or "chouraver" (both of them are made up words which have become commonplace, the second one from the "javanese" slang language which consisted of adding the syllable "av" in the middle of the word ; the real word is "chourer". you scoff perhaps but it can be effective enough to confuse the cops).

but my point is, there is a long and rich tradition of linguistic invention in french. we take pride in it.

[RWood]

As I watched Ricky's original video all I could think of was Zelda riding on her royal carriage. Well, that and wondering if the real cleaning was being done by the cat's tail rather than by the vacuum.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RWood

As I watched Ricky's original video all I could think of was Zelda riding on her royal carriage. Well, that and wondering if the real cleaning was being done by the cat's tail rather than by the vacuum.

hee!

(my royal carriage tries to walk straighter than that. most of the time it succeeds.)

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

well... the Académie is big on preserving the language, yes ; but that is not so much from the invention of words (there is an incredibly rich and varied tradition of inventive argot languages in french and litterary mozzling of the finest kind) as it is from the "contamination" of french by english words. on the one hand, this is silly, because languages are always borrowing from other languages and it enriches them ; on the other hand, it can be a bit comprehensible, because it's true that sometimes out of laziness or because it's "hype" people will begin to use an english word for something which already has a perfectly good (sometimes better) name in french (we had a discussion about this phenomenon too before... see the despised "bullet points"). they tried to keep us from saying "weekend" (fin de semaine), "hotdog" (chien chaud), "email" (courriel), "spam" (pourriel). it didn't work out for them. they never tried to prevent anyone from saying "trucmuche" or "chouraver" (both of them are made up words which have become commonplace, the second one from the "javanese" slang language which consisted of adding the syllable "av" in the middle of the word ; the real word is "chourer". you scoff perhaps but it can be effective enough to confuse the cops).

but my point is, there is a long and rich tradition of linguistic invention in french. we take pride in it.

Hmmm .... well, that must be tough for them. I mean, so much of English is taken from French, I wouldn't even know where to divide the two languages up. You could very easily have a French based word, that has come into common use in English, gets corrupted in English (think maison and mansion), and then sneaks into English slang from there. So, wouldn't it sort of be full circle if it wandered back into France??

The hotdog thing I really don't get. I mean a hotdog is NOT a hot dog. To force a literal translation on the French people is just plain mean spirited.

Also, I don't know how many languages have gerunds, but really, I think that is one of the best things going about the English language. They make for such a compact way of expressing yourself.

Of course, I suppose that's why English is not known as the language of romance .... it does tend to be rather cut to the chase.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Hmmm .... well, that must be tough for them. I mean, so much of English is taken from French, I wouldn't even know where to divide the two languages up. You could very easily have a French based word, that has come into common use in English, gets corrupted in English (think maison and mansion), and then sneaks into English slang from there. So, wouldn't it sort of be full circle if it wandered back into France??

yes, it would, and is ; that happens, although i don't have any examples in my head right now (i'll let you know if i think of one).

The hotdog thing I really don't get. I mean a hotdog is NOT a hot dog. To force a literal translation on the French people is just plain mean spirited.

well, where did that weird name come from in english then ??? it's just as weird, whatever the language !

Also, I don't know how many languages have gerunds, but really, I think that is one of the best things going about the English language. They make for such a compact way of expressing yourself.

Of course, I suppose that's why English is not known as the language of romance .... it does tend to be rather cut to the chase.

actually i agree with you that english does have some very admirable qualities and sometimes it's a bit frustrating not to be able to say something in that very direct way you can in english. on the other hand, often it's frustrating not to be able to express something in english the precise way i would mean it in french, as well. they both have their strengths and weaknesses. but what you say is precisely why (in my opinion) the noir detective novel was first written in english. you *can* write a noir story in french, but i don't think it comes as naturally.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

well, where did that weird name come from in english then ??? it's just as weird, whatever the language !

My understanding is that that type of sausage was called a "little dog" (dachshund) sausage or frankfurter by the Germans, because it resembled a dog of the dachshund breed.

Along about the time that someone (exactly who, we will never know) got the idea to stick a dachshund frankfurter into a bun, they stopped calling them dachshund frankfurters, and just called the sausage a frankfurter and the frankfurter in a bun became a "hotdog."

However .... if you really wanted to get insanely technical, I suppose you would call a hotdog a "dachshund frankfurter sandwich." But, as mentioned, the English (and especially the Americans) are ever so into brevity. Soul of wit and all that .... wot, wot??

[zelda_pinwheel]

well that's a nice story, but it doesn't make it any less weird in english than in french !

[slayda]

ZP,
FYI (which is a madeup word, actually an acronym) the Roomba, while entertaining, is not a very good cleaner. It actually works better on non-carpeted floors than on carpet.

As far as borrowing words, when I took German, I learned that German, English, and Russian borrowed the word "park" from the French "parc". Some words are more obviously borrowed but before learning this, I would have argued with anyone who told me that "park" was not a native English word.

Another favorite is the word for Library, which, in English, is derived from Latin. Every other language that I have a passing familarity with derived their word for Library from Greek, e.g. biblioteca (Spanish, Portuguese, & Italian), Bibliothek (German), bibliothèque (French) & библиотек (Russian).

Greek - βιβλιοθήκη

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by slayda

ZP,
FYI (which is a madeup word, actually an acronym) the Roomba, while entertaining, is not a very good cleaner. It actually works better on non-carpeted floors than on carpet.

well, none of my floors have carpet, so that's fine. and i'm sure it would do an excellent job of keeping things a bit less furry around here in between two thorough vacuumings.

Another favorite is the word for Library, which, in English, is derived from Latin. Every other language that I have a passing familarity with derived their word for Library from Greek, e.g. biblioteca (Spanish, Portuguese, & Italian), Bibliothek (German), bibliothèque (French) & библиотек (Russian).

Greek - βιβλιοθήκη

heh. we actually also have the word "librairie" : it means bookshop. and a "libraire" is a bookseller. and book is "livre". of obvious origin.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

well that's a nice story, but it doesn't make it any less weird in english than in french !

Originally Posted by slayda

ZP,
FYI (which is a madeup word, actually an acronym) the Roomba, while entertaining, is not a very good cleaner. It actually works better on non-carpeted floors than on carpet.

As far as borrowing words, when I took German, I learned that German, English, and Russian borrowed the word "park" from the French "parc". Some words are more obviously borrowed but before learning this, I would have argued with anyone who told me that "park" was not a native English word.

Another favorite is the word for Library, which, in English, is derived from Latin. Every other language that I have a passing familarity with derived their word for Library from Greek, e.g. biblioteca (Spanish, Portuguese, & Italian), Bibliothek (German), bibliothèque (French) & библиотек (Russian).

Greek - βιβλιοθήκη

I really can't think of any words that are "native" English. Unless you are talking about Gaelic and Celtic languages ... and even they were imported from somewhere else.

Most of the "English" language was Germanic before the Normal invasion. After that, Norman French became the language of the landed classes, while the Germanic "Old English" became the language of the lower classes.

Thus, while the word for the meat is French or French based (mutton or beef), the word for the animal is usually German based (as with sheep). The word for a regular house is German based (haus) while the word for an enormous house is French based (maison = mansion).

With most words in English you will either find a Germanic or French (and often Latin) base. Of course, some words from the French or a bit unusual because they came largely from the Normans, who were French, but French by way of Denmark .... erk??

[RickyMaveety]

Hmm .... just thinking about that .... biblioteca is library, but libro is book in Spanish. And, in English the library comes from Latin, but the "Bible" comes from the Greek, and I think "book" comes from the German.

Let's face it .... language is pretty much all over the damn place ... and always has been. I wonder if the reason that the word for library in so many of the otherwise Latin based languages comes Greek is because the first true great library was the one at Alexandria, which while technically an Egyptian city was actually built while the Ptolomaic pharaohs were ruling. They would have used the Greek word for books in naming or describing the building ... which was very well known to the Romans.

Just a thought .....

And, taking a minute or two to look at the Wiki about it .... "The Greek term "biblioteke", used by many historians of the time, refers in fact to the [royal] "Collection of Books" rather than to the building itself ..."
So, I think my little theory holds water ... at least in the Wonderful World of Wiki. So, the Greek rulers of post Alexandrian Egypt built a building to house the royal collection of books, and people started associating that term with the building, including the Romans, who as we all know had a pretty close association with Egypt during that period (think Caesar and Cleopatra), and so they took the term, now associated with the building, rather than the contents, and started using it.

This stuff is so much fun!! I mean that honestly.

[RWood]

In eleventh grade I got into a "discussion" with my English teacher that resulted in my appearance in the principal's office. The teacher insisted on failing me on a composition because I had split an infinitive (to her way of thinking it was the mark of bad breeding.) Support for my position such as "English is Germantic in structure and not Latin based." did not sway her. The principal listened to both sides of the "discussion", read the paper in question, and regraded it. (It turns out that he was a former English teacher.) My grade went from an "F" to an "A" and I was reassigned to another English class for the rest of the year.

As for the "hot dog" story, mostly that is what I have also heard. They were introduced at Coney Island (a beach in New York City that was popular in the summer and at the end of a street car line so everyone in the city could go there.) One newspaper sketch artist published a drawing of a dachshund in a large bun and the term took off. It had many properties to recommend it: it was easy to remember, quick to say, unique, and identified a specific item.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Thus, while the word for the meat is French or French based (mutton or beef), the word for the animal is usually German based (as with sheep).

That's actually a clue as to which class ate what. In English, if the upper classes ate an animal then the food has a different name than the animal it came from, but animals which the lower classes ate are called the same thing alive or cooked. The modern English food names are derived from the French terms for the things eaten by the francophone gentry.

ie:

• pig -- ham/pork
• cow -- beef
• deer -- venison
• sheep -- mutton

versus:

• chicken
• rabbit
• duck
• fish
• turkey

I've always found this sort of thing fascinating.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by RWood

In eleventh grade I got into a "discussion" with my English teacher that resulted in my appearance in the principal's office. The teacher insisted on failing me on a composition because I had split an infinitive (to her way of thinking it was the mark of bad breeding.) Support for my position such as "English is Germantic in structure and not Latin based." did not sway her.

I knew a fellow who, for one of his high-school English classes, wrote a paper on the history of the term ... well, the one that starts with "F" and rhymes with "duck." Capisce?

He actually got permission to do it from his teacher, who was okay with it as long as it was a serious examination of the topic, which it was.

However, before he could turn it in, he got caught making copies of it by the school librarian, who predictably, after (figuratively speaking) giving birth to an entire litter of kittens and a barnyard's worth of various farm animals animals over it, dragged him straight to the principal's office (not even a vice principal -- straight to the top).

I forget what exactly happened to him over it punishment-wise, but I don't think it was too serious since he was generally a reasonably well-behaved guy, bit of a jerk, but a well behaved one. I do recall that he had to come up with a different paper to fulfill the assignment, because the teacher was not in a position to accept that particular one once (you should pardon the pun) the word got out on it.

[RWood]

Why such as fuss over a paper about a firetruck?