Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't?

[Waylander]

Hi, i was wondering whether you people had some ideas about this topic. My father is one of those old fashioned types (he's in his late fifties) who says that all fantasy is derivative of Tolkien, and by extension is poorly written, a waste of time and money etc etc. Is there an article/blog post whatever that I can show to him that argues the opposite? i have some titles in mind that will show him that fantasy has come a long way since Brooks et al, but would appreciate some help.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Waylander

Hi, i was wondering whether you people had some ideas about this topic. My father is one of those old fashioned types (he's in his late fifties) who says that all fantasy is derivative of Tolkein, and by extension is poorly written, a waste of time and money etc etc. Is there an article/blog post whatever that I can show to him that argues the opposite? i have some titles in mind that will show him that fantasy has come a long way since Brooks et al, but would appreciate some help.

Unfortunately I kind of agree with your dad. My first real fantasy reading was Tolkein and I spent 10 or 15 years trying to find fantasy (or SF) that could match it -- finally got tired of the process and gave up.

I should mention that I'm an old geezer.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Waylander

Hi, i was wondering whether you people had some ideas about this topic. My father is one of those old fashioned types (he's in his late fifties) who says that all fantasy is derivative of Tolkein, and by extension is poorly written, a waste of time and money etc etc. Is there an article/blog post whatever that I can show to him that argues the opposite? i have some titles in mind that will show him that fantasy has come a long way since Brooks et al, but would appreciate some help.

Plainly fantasy written before Tolkien (eg Charles Kingsley's "The Water Babies") cannot be derivative of it. A single counter-example being sufficient to disprove a statement that "All something is true", we have disproven his statement. QED.

If you're asking "is all fantasy written after LOTR derivative of it", the answer again is "no". Clearly, modern fantasy writers are influenced by Tolkien - nobody can not be influenced by such a giant in the field - and clearly there is some fantasy which is indeed derivative of Tolkien (Terry Brooks' "The Sword of Shanara" being the most obvious example), but that certainly doesn't mean that subsequent fantasy is derivative. Authors like Stephen Donaldson, Ursula Le Guin and Raymond Feist have taken the genre down completely different paths to Tolkien.

[mgbino]

Read Perdido Street Station by China Mievelle and see if you can find even the slightest LOTR influence in it.

I doubt it.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Plainly fantasy written before Tolkien (eg Charles Kingsley's "The Water Babies") cannot be derivative of it. A single counter-example being sufficient to disprove a statement that "All something is true", we have disproven his statement. QED.

If you're asking "is all fantasy written after LOTR derivative of it", the answer again is "no". Clearly, modern fantasy writers are influenced by Tolkien - nobody can not be influenced by such a giant in the field - and clearly there is some fantasy which is indeed derivative of Tolkien (Terry Brooks' "The Sword of Shanara" being the most obvious example), but that certainly doesn't mean that subsequent fantasy is derivative. Authors like Stephen Donaldson, Ursula Le Guin and Raymond Feist have taken the genre down completely different paths to Tolkien.

Yep. There is a lot of different fantasy genres. Tolkien wrote in what some call heroic fantasy or high fantasy. Some of the high fantasy written prior to Tolkien that I like are works like "The Worm Ouroboros" by ER Eddison. (1922) Another is "The Well at the World's End" by William Morris.

Some of the fantasy writers who have nothing in common with Tolkien are writers such as Roger Zelazny (The Amber series, The Lord of Light, Creatures of Light and Darkness), Brian Daley (the Coramonde series). For that matter, the whole urban fantasy genre is in a totally different direction with different roots than Tolkien.

[Waylander]

Thanks for the suggestions. I do agree that a lot of the fantasy written in the 80's was highly derivative of Tolkien, especially The Sword of Shannara etc. However, I do think that there was other fantasy written around the time of Tolkien and after that followed a different path and was different in style and influence. Also, modern fantasy, even epic fantasy, has been breaking away from Tolkien's influence to a much greater extent. Think Joe Abercrombie, Patrick Rothfuss, Daniel Abraham, Joh Gwynne, L.E. Modesitt, Peter V. Brett, Brent Weeks etc. No elves, Tolkien Dwarves, orcs etc. The plots and themes in these books are also different. I'm sure there are many more but these were just the ones off the top of my head.

[HarryT]

Do the man the courtesy of spelling his name correctly, please: it's "Tolkien", not "Tolkein" .

[fjtorres]

Where to begin? Where to stop!

Anything from Patricia McKilip or Neil Gaiman.
Piers Anthony; Xanth, Adept, or Incarnation Series.
Fletcher Pratt's Blue Star
Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories
L. Sprague DeCamp's Harold Shea stories
Poul Anderson's Witch and Werewolf
Gordon Dickson's Dragon Knight
Heinlein. (Yes. Glory Road)
Katherine Kurtz' much neglected Derynii Saga
The Pinis' Elfquest
Larry Niven's The Magic Goes away and Svetz Series
Phil and Kaja Foglio's Girl Genius
Lewis Carroll
L. Frank Baum's Oz series
Robert Lynn Asprin's Myth Adventures
Roger Zelazny's Jack of Shadows, Madwand, etc
Brian Daley's Coramond
Robert Don Hughes' Pelmen saga, sadly incomplete

The entire urban fantasy sub-genre, too big to even list the biggies.
Harry frakking Potter.
Rick Riordan.
On and on and on.

Plus all the ones listed above and many, many, many more.

I'm sorry, but if all you know of fantasy is Tolkien you don't know fantasy.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by Waylander

Hi, i was wondering whether you people had some ideas about this topic. My father is one of those old fashioned types (he's in his late fifties) who says that all fantasy is derivative of Tolkein, and by extension is poorly written, a waste of time and money etc etc. Is there an article/blog post whatever that I can show to him that argues the opposite? i have some titles in mind that will show him that fantasy has come a long way since Brooks et al, but would appreciate some help.

Your dad has some serious prejudices, and on this account you should pay no attention to his opinion.

Only fantasy that kinda started with Tolkien is epic fantasy.
Heroic and sword and sorcery fantasy started with Robert E. Howard (Conan) and Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, John Carter of Mars).
Weird fantasy started with Lovecraft.
Children's modern fantasy started with Lewis Carol and C. S. Lewis (Narnia)

You should give your father The Blade itself by Joe Abercrombie who is maybe the best writer in gritty fantasy genre which is a continuation of heroic line in our days, and when he finishes ask him how much of Tolkien did he find in there. If he answers with anything other than a zilch, he's a lost cause.

[Pax]

This statement ist outdated.

Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen.

[Waylander]

Do the man the courtesy of spelling his name correctly, please: it's "Tolkien", not "Tolkein" .

I thought there was something wrong. I feel unworthy of calling myself a fantasy fan now.

Your dad has some serious prejudices, and on this account you should pay no attention to his opinion.

Only fantasy that kinda started with Tolkien is epic fantasy.
Heroic and sword and sorcery fantasy started with Robert E. Howard (Conan) and Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, John Carter of Mars).
Weird fantasy started with Lovecraft.
Children's modern fantasy started with Lewis Carol and C. S. Lewis (Narnia)

You should give your father The Blade itself by Joe Abercrombie who is maybe the best writer in gritty fantasy genre which is a continuation of heroic line in our days, and when he finishes ask him how much of Tolkien did he find in there. If he answers with anything other than a zilch, he's a lost cause.

Thankyou. Couldn't have said it better myself. Abercrombie is a prime example of an author that is NOT a Tolkien clone.

Where to begin? Where to stop!

Anything from Patricia McKilip or Neil Gaiman.
Piers Anthony; Xanth, Adept, or Incarnation Series.
Fletcher Pratt's Blue Star
Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories
L. Sprague DeCamp's Harold Shea stories
Poul Anderson's Witch and Werewolf
Gordon Dickson's Dragon Knight
Heinlein. (Yes. Glory Road)
Katherine Kurtz' much neglected Derynii Saga
The Pinis' Elfquest
Larry Niven's The Magic Goes away and Svetz Series
Phil and Kaja Foglio's Girl Genius
Lewis Carroll
L. Frank Baum's Oz series
Robert Lynn Asprin's Myth Adventures
Roger Zelazny's Jack of Shadows, Madwand, etc
Brian Daley's Coramond
Robert Don Hughes' Pelmen saga, sadly incomplete

The entire urban fantasy sub-genre, too big to even list the biggies.
Harry frakking Potter.
Rick Riordan.
On and on and on.

Plus all the ones listed above and many, many, many more.

I'm sorry, but if all you know of fantasy is Tolkien you don't know fantasy.

Also excellent points. Just writing off fantasy as a batch of derivative Tolkien clones is in my opinion very close, not even narrow, minded. I may give my father Promise of Blood by Brian Mclellan to read, as it is definitely not a Tolkien clone. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[fjtorres]

Try Anthony's A SPELL FOR CHAMELEON. Multi-textured book, easily accessible even for non fantasy fans. Basically a modern day fable. Gaiman's STARDUST works the same general territory and the movie version is killer. Especially the casting.

[Greg Anos]

If you want fine literary writing, (the writer "ghosted" a Pulitzer Prize winning novel for a writer friend suffering from severe clinical depression), I would recommend Jame Branch Cabell.

Jurgen is the big gun in his canon, but I would recommend There Were Two Pirates (a novella) as the best starting point.

[crich70]

C.S. Lewis's Narnia books are not clones of Tolkien though they were friends and were part of the same circle. Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series of 5 books aren't derived from Tolkien either.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by mgbino

Read Perdido Street Station by China Mievelle and see if you can find even the slightest LOTR influence in it.

I doubt it.

China Mieville is an excellent representative of New Weird genre, which is influenced by Lovecraft.
Here's what he said about Tolkien:

Miéville works to move fantasy away from J. R. R. Tolkien's influence, which for him is stultifying and reactionary. He once described Tolkien as "the wen on the arse of fantasy literature."[6] Miéville has cited Michael de Larrabeiti's Borrible Trilogy as one of his biggest influences; he wrote an introduction for the trilogy's 2002 reissue. The introduction was eventually left out of the book, but is now available on de Larrabeiti's website.[7] Miéville is also indebted to Moorcock, having cited his essay "Epic Pooh" as the source upon which he is "riffing" or even simply "cheerleading" in his critique of Tolkien-imitative fantasy.

-wiki
now that may be harsh, and I don't quite agree with him, but not everyone in fantasy worships Tolkien.

I also agree with the guy who mentioned Malazan. Simply put, people who equate fantasy with Tolkien, or Tolkien derivatives are not really knowledgeable in the genre.