kepub stuff

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

I'm thinking that now that [deleted]'s a Calibre plugin it means that the need for ADE (or in my case, Sony Reader for PC) is eliminated.

All one has to do is open Kobo Desktop Reader (so the kepub drops into it), import it Calibre via the [deleted] plugin, and then use Rev.Bob's plugin for tidyups.

Sorry, but no. That won't work like you think.

There are a few problems. The first problem is that obok will not list DRM free kepub. So you have to try to find them in the mess that is Kobo kepub. Then there is the fact thatt he formatting is changed from the original ePub. It's different when it's a kepub and it's again different after you use Modify ePub to remove the kepub crud. I've tested this in both ADE and Calibre's viewer.

Kepub modifies things too much and we don't get back to what the ePub should be. So you get an ePub that's not right when all is done without having to modify the code to try to fi what the kepub process screwed up.

[Lynx-lynx]

The next version of [deleted] for Calibre will include outputting the DRM free kepubs, and I'm guessing that along the way there will be updates to other plugins to sort out some of the stuff that you refer to.

But hey, I'm not too fazed as it stands.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx

The next version of [deleted] for Calibre will include outputting the DRM free kepubs, and I'm guessing that along the way there will be updates to other plugins to sort out some of the stuff that you refer to.

But hey, I'm not too fazed as it stands.

No, a new version of [deleted] won't fix the formatting. Neither will Modify ePub. The formatting was messed with when the ePub was converted to kepub.

[Lynx-lynx]

Nope I didn't mention [a drm-removal plugin] would fix the formatting.

I've noticed stuff gets sorted out, sooner or later, by some very active people and I thank them for their efforts.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Kepub modifies things too much and we don't get back to what the ePub should be. So you get an ePub that's not right when all is done without having to modify the code to try to fi what the kepub process screwed up.

Something to keep in mind is that the kepub version of the book might not have been created from the epub version at all.

In some cases the pulisher's original might be say a Word document, and both the kepub and epub get created directly from the Word document. In other cases the kepub might get created from the Word document, but the publisher supplies a seperate epub that was created via a different process (such as a Calibre conversion of a mobi that was created from the original Word document, in which case the kepub version might be closer to the publisher's original than the epub is).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Something to keep in mind is that the kepub version of the book might not have been created from the epub version at all.

In some cases the pulisher's original might be say a Word document, and both the kepub and epub get created directly from the Word document. In other cases the kepub might get created from the Word document, but the publisher supplies a seperate epub that was created via a different process (such as a Calibre conversion of a mobi that was created from the original Word document, in which case the kepub version might be closer to the publisher's original than the epub is).

In the eBooks we've mentioned, I would highly doubt that would happen. It would be more work on the publisher's side to supply a different source when they've already created an ePub. Plus, that would mean that if any changes to the text was made in the ePub, the other source file would also have to be fixed. I don't see that happening. It's just duplication of work and more unneeded work on top.

[Anak]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Something to keep in mind is that the kepub version of the book might not have been created from the epub version at all.

In some cases the pulisher's original might be say a Word document, and both the kepub and epub get created directly from the Word document. In other cases the kepub might get created from the Word document, but the publisher supplies a seperate epub that was created via a different process (such as a Calibre conversion of a mobi that was created from the original Word document, in which case the kepub version might be closer to the publisher's original than the epub is).

It is impossible to automatically generate proper, high quality ebooks form Word documents without manually post processing them.
There are too many unpredicable factors for a reliable and automatic conversion. As every publisher (group) has their own methods/ways/implementations, etc. Too exepensive and unreliable outcome.
Therefore, books are always derived from the 'original' epub/mobi provided by the publisher.

It usually goes like this:
Publisher grants Kobo access to or provide Kobo with a source epub ('the originial', no DRM scheme) which Kobo converts to (1) its propritary kepub format, and/or (2) creates a epub with a Adobe DRM (ADEPT) scheme.
Both created book formats (versions) are stored on Kobo servers and directly served by Kobo to itscustomers.
Smaller ebook sellers usually don't store books on their own servers but use a distribution platform (middle man, in the Netherlands/Belgium: CB) to deliver the ebooks to their customers. Publishers deliver a 'final epub' (including a DRM scheme, like Adobe DRM [ADEPT] or watermark) to CB.
Offcourse publishers can also choose not to add DRM.

Best publishers,

In order to be able to sell more e-books/loan, we have added two new customers to the CB system, which with private apps work for various platforms (Apple, Android). This concern Amazon.co.uk and Yindo.

Because this specialist Apps, which work differently than standard, these customers (not the apps themselves) through the CB thus gained access to the source files of all our eBooks. That means that customers, as with other buyers, not per sale a protected (with watermark or DRM) file, but that they have access to the original files, which they per sales make a copy and which itself secure. The buyers also maintain itself at the sell and the reckoning takes place once a month via the eBoekhuis (and us), just as it now also at iBooks and Kobo happens.

We realize that the access to the source files might not be everyone's preference. However, it is not possible to enable or disable this option per title; This is only possible for all titles at the free Publishers at the same time. Because we already had a partnership with Yindo walk and Bruna a reliable name, we have the extra outlet labeled as more important than any objections by a few. Eventually we all want our ebooks sell ...

We hope to have many additional sales of your e-books!

Best regards,

Roemer Lievaart

(Google translated, I added italics for emphasis)
Source (Dutch): Nieuwe eBoekafnemers: Bruna.nl en Yindo

Kobo works the same way. Here is Kobo an 'external bookstore' (like Amazon, Apple) and where CB is the 'internal' or default bookstore.

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

In the eBooks we've mentioned, I would highly doubt that would happen. It would be more work on the publisher's side to supply a different source when they've already created an ePub. Plus, that would mean that if any changes to the text was made in the ePub, the other source file would also have to be fixed. I don't see that happening. It's just duplication of work and more unneeded work on top.

Here is an example of one I bought where the kepub and epub versions must have come from different sources: http://store.kobobooks.com/en-US/ebo...ng-glass-war-1

The kepub version has a different cover and different copyright page compared to the epub (the copyright pages have different cover artist credits), there are probably other differences but those are the easiest ones to spot, I only read the kepub version.

[Anak]

That's the UK/CA editon (9780141967479), the US editon (9781101603031) may have a different cover. Apparently, Kobo sells the UK/CA editon.

Penguin US:
http://www.penguin.com/book/the-look.../9781101603031
Press the buy button to buy at the Kobo store. The book can't be found. "Sorry! Your search for "9781101603031" did not return any results."

Penguin UK/CA:
http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/Boo...967479,00.html
http://penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/9...#9780143182979

[GeoffR]

Originally Posted by Anak

That's the UK/CA editon (9780141967479), the US editon (9781101603031) may have a different cover. Apparently, Kobo sells the UK/CA editon.

Right, I have the UK edition, both kepub and epub are UK editions, but they have different covers and different cover credits. (Both covers are different to the US edition).

[Anak]

Originally Posted by GeoffR

Right, I have the UK edition, both kepub and epub are UK editions, but they have different covers and different cover credits. (Both covers are different to the US edition).

Well, that makes it more complicated.
In The Netherlands some ebooks are sold under different ISBN numbers with the same or a different cover.

Chris Ryan - Killzone (different cover/isbn)
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/killzone/1001004011760293/ (Oktober 2011)
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/killzone/1001004011339094/ (November 2011)

Michael Connelly - De herziening (same cover but a different ISBN)
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/de-herziening/1001004011437713/ (June 2011)
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/de-herziening/1001004011295809 (February 2012)

Out of print/not available for purchase anymore, but still available for download if that edition is in your online library/account.

It is only very confusing.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by Anak

That's the UK/CA editon (9780141967479), the US editon (9781101603031) may have a different cover. Apparently, Kobo sells the UK/CA editon.

Penguin US:
http://www.penguin.com/book/the-look.../9781101603031
Press the buy button to buy at the Kobo store. The book can't be found. "Sorry! Your search for "9781101603031" did not return any results."

Penguin UK/CA:
http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/Boo...967479,00.html
http://penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/9...#9780143182979

This also depends on where you are. Kobo probably have both versions. Which version they allow you to see depends on the country you are in. Or at least the country your account claims you are in.

[jackie_w]

There has been a lot of emotional ranting about kepub vs. epub styling in the last few days, so I spent some time today poking around the innards of a Kobo-bought DRM'd kepub from my Kobo Desktop library and compared:

1. kepub with DRM still intact
2. kepub/epub hybrid resulting from applying [deleted] de-DRM.
   Although calibre sees it as an epub, at this stage it's really a de-DRM'd kepub, but you can open it in the calibre Viewer and Editor.
3. epub produced by running Modify Epub on the hybrid with option 'Strip Kobo DRM remnants' checked.
   IMO it's now truly a 'standard epub'.

[1] vs [2]:
The only difference I could see was that [1] had encrypted html and image files and [2] didn't. The css, toc.ncx and opf files were identical. So I don't think de-DRMing introduced any styling changes.

[2] vs. [3]:
Anak (post #11) has already posted a summary of Kobo-specific kepub stuff found in [2]. I found that Modify Epub removed almost all of that. I could not see how the small remnant would adversely affect the styling of 99.999% of epubs. Once again, the css, toc.ncx and opf files were identical.

In detail (and reiterating Anak's post), [2] contains the following in every html file. The red/blue/purple stuff is the kepub-specific code. Modify Epub removes the red/purple bits leaving the blue bits as harmless (99.999% of the time) remnants.

<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC '-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN' 'http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd'>
<html xml:lang="en" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<title>The Feud</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../styles/styles.css"></link>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../styles/additional.css"></link>
<!-- kobo-style -->
<link type="text/css" rel="stylesheet" href="css/kobo.css"></link>
<script type="text/javascript" src="js/kobo.js"></script>
<style type="text/css" id="kobostylehacks">
    div#book-inner p, div#book-inner div { font-size: 1.0em; } 
    a { color: black; } 
    a:link, a:visited, a:hover, a:active { color: blue; } 
    div#book-inner * { margin-top: 0 !important; margin-bottom: 0 !important;}
</style>
</head>
<body>
<div id="book-columns">
<div id="book-inner">
<h2 class="chapter-number" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><a id="page_4"></a>
<span class="koboSpan" id="kobo.1.1">ONE</span></h2>
... the rest of the original epub content ... ...
</div>
</div>
</html>

Modify Epub also removed the physical kepub-specific files:

css/kobo.css (empty, anyway)
js/kobo.js
rights.xml

In conclusion (based on a totally unscientific sample of one): I believe that [3] can be considered a 'standard epub'. Its original css files are unchanged - thus its styling matches the publisher's original intentions (warts-and-all). If you want to disagree with any of this then feel free, but please, lets have less heat and more light if we're all going to learn anything. I don't have an epub3 book (real or pseudo) to test, so any further enlightenment welcome

Caveats:
If one were to open both [2] and [3] in the calibre Viewer or an Adobe epub2 renderer then, YES, there will be big differences. For anyone familiar with css the reason should be obvious in the purple css line shown above.

• For [2], anything contained within <div id="book-inner">...</div> (i.e. everything in every chapter) will have all top/bottom margins totally zapped e.g. scenebreaks likely AWOL, headings all squashed.
• For [3], the offending purple css line is gone, leaving the original css top/bottom margins to prevail.

The moral of the story is, if you're going to keep [2] at all, store it in calibre as KEPUB format and only view it by sideloading to a Kobo device as a KEPUB to be read with the Access renderer.
[3] can be treated like any standard epub2 book.

If you got this far, congrats and thank you for your time

[JSWolf]

jackie_, thank you for your technical analysis. I've dived into a fixed kepub and found that Modify ePub left something in the XML that should have been removed.

<?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
<title>Wild Cards I</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="../styles/stylesheet.css"/>
<style id="kobostylehacks" type="text/css">div#book-inner p, div#book-inner div { font-size: 1.0em; } a { color: black; } a:link, a:visited, a:hover, a:active { color: blue; } div#book-inner * { margin-top: 0 !important; margin-bottom: 0 !important;}
</style><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"/>
</head>

The above is a header from an XML after Modify ePub was run. The bit in bold is what's left behind. With that gone, things work much better. This is a set of styles that does modify the way the XML looks and without it, we are good to go.

There is one other difference, if the original ePub containes the file page-template.xpgt, that does get stripped.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've dived into a fixed kepub and found that Modify ePub left something in the XML that should have been removed.

ME definitely removed the unwanted <style id="kobostylehacks"> stuff from mine, but you're saying that it didn't from yours? Interesting.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There is one other difference, if the original ePub containes the file page-template.xpgt, that does get stripped.

My kepub doesn't have an xpgt file so I can't test that. Are you sure that you didn't also have 'Remove Adobe .xpgt files and links' option checked in ME? For my experiment with the 'Strip Kobo DRM remnants' option I made sure that it was the only item checked.