"Windows 9" "Threshold" and "Windows" Rumors thread

[Glorfindel]

More: Apps will be runable in a window
Windows may adapt the free lifetime updates like Ubuntu, OS X, and Android

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I sympathize but I'd be reluctant. Intel is heavily involved in Linux and sees that their hardware is well supported.

True.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But while Intel is many things, a maker of top video graphics adapters isn't one of them.

I agree. On Linux, I tend to desire hardware compatibility.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I just installed a graphics card in the machine I'm using at the moment - it came with Intel onboard graphics. That works well enough for some things, but Intel 3D performance sucks.

The 3D performance is perfectly fine for most desktop oriented tasks. And the multimedia performance is pretty nice for such an affordable solution.

Honestly, Linux is possibly the worst choice for gaming, 3D modeling, and et cetera when compared with pretty much anything else in the consumer space, so I don't fret over 3D performance. (I can't argue over the industry space, because I tend to deal with only the consumer side of things).

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The ASUS card is based on an ATI design. Performance in things like Google Earth is notably better. It cost me $40. I don't do a lot that uses 3D, but I do enough to justify the investment.

That's cool! I have had the worst luck with AMD (who absorbed ATI forever ago) graphics cards and integrated solutions in Linux. In 12.04 there was no support for Power Management in the Open Source driver, so I was forced to use the incredibly horrible binary (fglrx) driver that had barely adequate 3D performance and indescribably poor 2D performance. A version or two later and the open source driver added rudimentary support for power management on the chipset that I had, so that was awesome. Performance was still bad, but at least it worked a bit better and the fans in my system didn't run full tilt nonstop (turns out the implementation of proper power management is REALLY important). And then they changed the supported hardware stack in the most recent versions which completely removed support from my chipset which is from 2010. 2010! And the binary driver also removed support for it. Lord, what an annoyance. So I had to revert that specific laptop back to Windows 7, which at least has stagnant, but modern drivers available for that chipset.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I've been a computer guy for 30 years, starting on mainframes and moving across and down. I've spent a lot of time popping the hood and fiddling with the insides.

That's awesome. I only got into the business 11 years ago after I got my BA in IT. So you have definitely seen quite a bit more stuff than I have. Even in the time that I have been working with this stuff it has changed SO MUCH. 30 years is practically 1,000 years in the computer world.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But there's a limit to how much of that I want to do. I use Ubuntu these days because it does the best job I've seen in a Linux distro of figuring out what hardware it's being installed on, setting itself up, and Just Working that I've seen in a distro. I want to devote my time to using the system, not to fiddling to make it usable.

This is me exactly. I settled on Ubuntu when Warty came out, and nothing has really tempted me. Ubuntu is the closest thing we have in the Linux world to a distribution that just installs, works, and is pleasurable to use.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The change in aspect ratio mirrors a change in the content displayed.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

That's another annoyance here, as more and more software has started to use video to show how to use it. People, I can read far faster than I can watch. Give me a bleeping manual!
______
Dennis

I always get in trouble when I tell someone to RTFM!

[Glorfindel]

That's because it's WTFV (Watch the freaking video)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Anthem

I agree. On Linux, I tend to desire hardware compatibility.

As do I, but I'm not fanatic about it. Basic HW support on the mobo/CPU end seems largely there. The problem children are things like graphics cards.

It could be worse than it is. At a former employer years ago, my boss handed me his laptop running Windows for Workgroups 3.11 and wanted me to see if I could make it faster. I applied every trick I knew, but there were basic limits I couldn't transcend. One problem child was video: the laptop used a video chip intended for laptop use that had the advantage of low cost and the disadvantage of mediocre performance. I investigated putting Linux on the machine, but the video ruled it out. The vendor insisted developers sign an NDA before they would even release the basic info that would allow someone to write a driver. Don't even think about releasing source for it...

My boss said he would just get the company to get him a new laptop when I told him there wasn't a lot I could do.

The 3D performance is perfectly fine for most desktop oriented tasks. And the multimedia performance is pretty nice for such an affordable solution.

I mostly agree, which is why I wasn't in a flaming hurry to upgrade, and "low cost" was the biggest factor.

Honestly, Linux is possibly the worst choice for gaming, 3D modeling, and et cetera when compared with pretty much anything else in the consumer space, so I don't fret over 3D performance. (I can't argue over the industry space, because I tend to deal with only the consumer side of things).

I'm not a gamer of the sort that pushes the hardware envelope. I tend to play ancient character mode games like Nethack, Larn, and Empire. Nor do I do a lot of 3D modelling, and I concur that Linux isn't what you use if you do that sort of thing, (Though there are some decent Linux packages now.)

But then, Linux isn't a graphics platform in general. If you're in the graphic arts, for example, in an agency or design shop, you run Photoshop on a Mac. Yes, Linux has the Gimp, but it's not Photoshop. Nothing is. Likewise, for DTP you run Adobe InDesign because it's the industry standard. You don't run Scribus.

That's cool! I have had the worst luck with AMD (who absorbed ATI forever ago) graphics cards and integrated solutions in Linux. In 12.04 there was no support for Power Management in the Open Source driver, so I was forced to use the incredibly horrible binary (fglrx) driver that had barely adequate 3D performance and indescribably poor 2D performance. A version or two later and the open source driver added rudimentary support for power management on the chipset that I had, so that was awesome. Performance was still bad, but at least it worked a bit better and the fans in my system didn't run full tilt nonstop (turns out the implementation of proper power management is REALLY important). And then they changed the supported hardware stack in the most recent versions which completely removed support from my chipset which is from 2010. 2010! And the binary driver also removed support for it. Lord, what an annoyance. So I had to revert that specific laptop back to Windows 7, which at least has stagnant, but modern drivers available for that chipset.

The card is working fine here under Win7 with the ATI Catalyst driver. It works under Linux, but I haven't done anything there that would really stress it. And since I'm dual booting, I'm not going lowest common denominator and limiting myself to only what Linux will support.

Better video was the last piece of the puzzle. The big win on the box was putting in a Crucial MX-100 SSD and running Windows and Linux from it. It's "OMG fast!" (I have to tweak Linux a bit to best use the SSD, but I'll get to that in a bit. Ubuntu installed to an Ext4 FS, which is what I would have chosen anyway, and it's a matter of making sure TRIM support is configured, and moving swap off the SSD.)

That's awesome. I only got into the business 11 years ago after I got my BA in IT. So you have definitely seen quite a bit more stuff than I have. Even in the time that I have been working with this stuff it has changed SO MUCH. 30 years is practically 1,000 years in the computer world.

It was accidental. Prior to falling into the deep end of the computer pool and learning to swim, I was variously a structural and ornamental metalworker, museum exhibit builder/maintainer, alternative energy worker, and graphic designer/print production guy among other things.

I moved to NYC from Philadelphia to pursue opportunities in the design field. After several less than optimum jobs, I decided to temp for a while while I looked for a better design gig, and found myself at a bank helping a financial guy clean up a backlog. He decided I had a few brain cells to rub together and started handing me stuff he preferred not to do, which mostly involved dealing with the bank's mainframe, and I became a junior financial guy, resident expert in the financial modelling software they used, and end user support for my area of the bank. The bank ran one of everything ever made, and I defined my job as "If it's a computer, I get to play with it", so I logged time on DEC minicomputers and IBM PCs when the original IBM PC was first appearing on desktops as an engine to run Lotus 1,2,3.

Next stop was a Unix systems house selling AT&T gear when AT&T was still in the business, and I learned Unix before Linux was a gleam in Linus Torvald's eye. Later jobs found me dealing with Windows on server and desktop, networking, and telecom.

I just tell people I'm still figuring out what I want to be when I grow up.

This is me exactly. I settled on Ubuntu when Warty came out, and nothing has really tempted me. Ubuntu is the closest thing we have in the Linux world to a distribution that just installs, works, and is pleasurable to use.

I'm a neutral in the OS wars. I've been around long enough and worked on enough different gear to have a feel for the myriad ways problems can be addressed, and the question is which solution is best for the problem. It may well not be Linux. I more or less agree with a comment Richard Stallman made to the effect that all OSes sucked, but Unix sucked less, and was therefore the model Gnu was supporting.

But yes, things have changed dramatically. My Palm OS PDA has a faster processor, more RAM, and more storage than my original Windows desktop machine. Hardware gets steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper.

I always get in trouble when I tell someone to RTFM!

I've spent a fair bit of time setting up systems so the users didn't have to RTFM. "No, no. Their userids are set up so that when they log in they are placed directly in the program they will use, and when they exist the program, they are logged off the system. They don't need to know they are on a Solaris system or how to deal with it..." "Good!"
______
Dennis

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

As do I, but I'm not fanatic about it. Basic HW support on the mobo/CPU end seems largely there. The problem children are things like graphics cards.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It could be worse than it is.

Absolutely. Things are better now than they ever have been, IMO. Your chances of a successful install (without even doing any research on the hardware before you attempt it) is very high, vs. just a few years ago. And with the ability to try out a distribution on a piece of hardware using a USB drive or some other live install, this is made even easier.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The vendor insisted developers sign an NDA before they would even release the basic info that would allow someone to write a driver. Don't even think about releasing source for it...

Yeah, this is a bummer. And why seeing people like Intel become so involved is a good thing.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But then, Linux isn't a graphics platform in general.

Definitely. There have been some pushes recently to make it more so, but nothing revolutionary.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

If you're in the graphic arts, for example, in an agency or design shop, you run Photoshop on a Mac. Yes, Linux has the Gimp, but it's not Photoshop. Nothing is.

Yep. The Gimp is something I use occasionally almost more like an oddity or rarity. For my basic needs I prefer Paint.net.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Likewise, for DTP you run Adobe InDesign because it's the industry standard. You don't run Scribus.

Yeah, there are a ton of examples like this in the OSS world.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

It was accidental. Prior to falling into the deep end of the computer pool and learning to swim, I was variously a structural and ornamental metalworker, museum exhibit builder/maintainer, alternative energy worker, and graphic designer/print production guy among other things.

A jack of all trades!

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The bank ran one of everything ever made, and I defined my job as "If it's a computer, I get to play with it", so I logged time on DEC minicomputers and IBM PCs when the original IBM PC was first appearing on desktops as an engine to run Lotus 1,2,3.

Very cool.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I just tell people I'm still figuring out what I want to be when I grow up.

Nice!

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'm a neutral in the OS wars.

Same here. But I'm a weird neutral in that I LOVE most of the common operating systems. Windows, Chrome OS, Mac OS X, iOS, Android (including Amazon's Fire OS fork), GNU/Linux distributions, BSDs, etc., I think all of these things are awesome. I think people forget while they are bashing whatever it is that they don't like that all of these platforms are pretty incredible and interesting.

I'm not in the computer business because I despise everything that I don't use/advocate. I'm in it because I have a passion for all of this stuff. Dominant players and underdogs alike.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I've been around long enough and worked on enough different gear to have a feel for the myriad ways problems can be addressed, and the question is which solution is best for the problem. It may well not be Linux.

I agree absolutely. This is the level-headed approach, and it makes the most sense to me.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I more or less agree with a comment Richard Stallman made to the effect that all OSes sucked, but Unix sucked less, and was therefore the model Gnu was supporting.

Stallman is certainly an opinionated and interesting person. I love his "Negative in the freedom dimension" quote.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But yes, things have changed dramatically. My Palm OS PDA has a faster processor, more RAM, and more storage than my original Windows desktop machine. Hardware gets steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper.

When I was in High School I tried to do almost everything on my Palm M105 because I had this crazy fantasy that handheld computers that go with you everywhere in your pocket were preferable to workstations that sat in one corner of a room. I read on it. Wrote papers on it. Played games on it. Used it as a calculator. Programmed on/for it. Read mobile focused magazines about it (and Pocket PC, which I desired but couldn't afford until college). I wanted to do the internet on it as well, but I couldn't afford the little modem attachment to my eternal regret (although the internet of the day would have been mostly terrible on it, I'm sure). EVERYTHING. I then got an m125, a Sony Palm, the Casio Cassiopeia E-125, loved that thing, and a Toshiba Pocket PC (like e315, or 310, or something). Now we have incredible tablets and smartphones that I use more during the average day than my main laptop.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I've spent a fair bit of time setting up systems so the users didn't have to RTFM.

That's the way to do it. I tried for years to do something similar with my parents computers. But they ALWAYS found a way to mess them up and ended up having to call me regularly to get basic things done. Finally, I convinced them to try a Chrome OS device and some tablets and (fingers crossed) they have not had a single problem thus far that has required my intervention.

(But even when their computers went wonky... I still loved it. I can't help it, I like working with software and hardware and getting things working properly. On the other hand, it does make me very happy that they can simply use their technology to get the things done that they want to do without having to fight it. We have come a long way.)

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Anthem

Absolutely. Things are better now than they ever have been, IMO. Your chances of a successful install (without even doing any research on the hardware before you attempt it) is very high, vs. just a few years ago. And with the ability to try out a distribution on a piece of hardware using a USB drive or some other live install, this is made even easier.

Yep. I also got Ubuntu installed to dual-boot on my older XP Home netbook, running the install of a USB stick.

Yeah, this is a bummer. And why seeing people like Intel become so involved is a good thing.

It makes sense for Intel, given the penetration of Linux in the server space. Most of the web is hosted on Linux servers, and Google's stuff is all under a customized version of Linux they developed precisely to run on X86 servers.

For that matter, many of the tools hardware makers use run under Linux. Chances are good, for example, that the cross-compiler that will take your source and generate the object code for device firmware is GCC running under Linux.

Definitely. There have been some pushes recently to make it more so, but nothing revolutionary.

Steam getting ported to Linux might count.

Yep. The Gimp is something I use occasionally almost more like an oddity or rarity. For my basic needs I prefer Paint.net.

Under Windows, it's what I normally use. The only missing piece I'm surprised is missing is an airbrush tool.

Under Linux, it's the Gimp for serious work and mtpaint for less demanding tasks.

Yeah, there are a ton of examples like this in the OSS world.

As a rule, there is likely an FOSS alternative for proprietary software. But if you make your living doing what the software is a tool for, you almost certainly use the proprietary tool.

A jack of all trades!

By accident rather than design, but it's been interesting and often fun. And most of what I've done has taught me things useful in other contexts.

I just mop my brow in relief that no one has asked me to do welding again. All I can say is that I remember having done it. I'd have to start from scratch and relearn to do it again.

Same here. But I'm a weird neutral in that I LOVE most of the common operating systems. Windows, Chrome OS, Mac OS X, iOS, Android (including Amazon's Fire OS fork), GNU/Linux distributions, BSDs, etc., I think all of these things are awesome. I think people forget while they are bashing whatever it is that they don't like that all of these platforms are pretty incredible and interesting.

I'm not sure I love any of them, but I've learned to deal with them and get the job done.

I'm not in the computer business because I despise everything that I don't use/advocate. I'm in it because I have a passion for all of this stuff. Dominant players and underdogs alike.

There will be stuff I might recommend, but that doesn't mean I despise the alternatives. I work with what I have to work with, and find ways to do what I need to do.

Stallman is certainly an opinionated and interesting person. I love his "Negative in the freedom dimension" quote.

I've met RMS, and know people who've known him for decades. He reminds me of a monk of the middle ages, who swore a vow of poverty, and holds and preaches a faith with a fiery certitude. His faith isn't terribly congruent with the real world, and he'll simply be unable to understand various practical objections. His solutions work for him, and he can't grasp why they might not work for others. "Well, Richard, you aren't married with a wife and kids, and don't own a house or car, and can exist happily on an income most might consider below poverty level. The rest of us aren't so fortunate..."

(Like, if you want to earn a living writing open source code, you do so by getting a job with someone like Google or IBM who uses a lot of it and pays engineers to hack on what they use. If you're an independent developer or working for someone else, you get paid to write proprietary code.)

When I was in High School I tried to do almost everything on my Palm M105 because I had this crazy fantasy that handheld computers that go with you everywhere in your pocket were preferable to workstations that sat in one corner of a room. I read on it. Wrote papers on it. Played games on it. Used it as a calculator. Programmed on/for it. Read mobile focused magazines about it (and Pocket PC, which I desired but couldn't afford until college). I wanted to do the internet on it as well, but I couldn't afford the little modem attachment to my eternal regret (although the internet of the day would have been mostly terrible on it, I'm sure). EVERYTHING. I then got an m125, a Sony Palm, the Casio Cassiopeia E-125, loved that thing, and a Toshiba Pocket PC (like e315, or 310, or something). Now we have incredible tablets and smartphones that I use more during the average day than my main laptop.

I still use a Palm OS PDA. The first one was a Handspring Visor Deluxe, when a then employer decided IT staffers ought to have one. It got replaced in turn by a Visor Pro, Palm Tungsten E, and Tapwave Zodiac 2. These days it's a TX. Primary use case outside of standard PDA functions was eBook viewer, but I could do other things, and a folding keyboard was a required accessory. I just installed Palm Desktop on the Win7 box and synced it. Fortunately, an NZ outfit had produced a beta 64 bit USB driver so I could hotsync it.

The tablet has largely but not entirely displaced the PDA. The cell phone is the smallest, cheapest, least powerful model Samsung makes. All it really does is calls and SMS, and that's all I want it to do. Everything else is something else's job.

But the nature of consumer electronics is that everything gets progressively smaller, faster, and cheaper. I've been predicting for a while that at some point, every phone will be a smartphone because it can be. Down the road, I expect to see a unit that will be in a phone form factor, and will in fact be a phone, but will be powerful enough that you'll be able to plug it into a dock with attached keyboard, mouse, big monitor, and NAS, and it will be your main computer.

That's the way to do it. I tried for years to do something similar with my parents computers. But they ALWAYS found a way to mess them up and ended up having to call me regularly to get basic things done. Finally, I convinced them to try a Chrome OS device and some tablets and (fingers crossed) they have not had a single problem thus far that has required my intervention.

My boss at one employer was like that. He had a mysterious power to cloud machine's minds, and things broke when he used them. At one point, I kicked him out of my computer room. "Larry, get out! Everything is up and running fine. If you stay in here, something will fail!" "But I just wanted to ask a question..." "Fine. I'll come and see you. Out!"

(But even when their computers went wonky... I still loved it. I can't help it, I like working with software and hardware and getting things working properly. On the other hand, it does make me very happy that they can simply use their technology to get the things done that they want to do without having to fight it. We have come a long way.)

I have a hard time resisting challenges. I had a conversation with a printer repair tech years back where he talked about having a problem with a machine at home, getting nowhere, deciding to go to bed, being unable to get to sleep, and saying "Screw this! I'm a tech! I'll make it work!", and a couple of hours later, he had. I understood exactly how he felt.
______
Dennis

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Steam getting ported to Linux might count.

I specifically considered this but I'm not sure it counts as revolutionary given the massive dropoff in GNU/Linux user participation after the initial burst of enthusiasm. And the long road to the actual release of a Steam machine doesn't help. I'm just not convinced it will go anywhere but you never know.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Under Linux, it's the Gimp for serious work and mtpaint for less demanding tasks.

mtPaint is a fun basic tool to use. I sometimes use it for simple things where another solution is overkill. A VERY long time ago I used Jasc PSP. My favorite old Windows paint tool was Ultimate Paint. I still have fond memories of it.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

As a rule, there is likely an FOSS alternative for proprietary software. But if you make your living doing what the software is a tool for, you almost certainly use the proprietary tool.

I believe this to be true as well, aside from a few solitary exceptions.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I just mop my brow in relief that no one has asked me to do welding again. All I can say is that I remember having done it. I'd have to start from scratch and relearn to do it again.

Nice!

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I'm not sure I love any of them, but I've learned to deal with them and get the job done.

Understandable. I started out as an insatiable hobbyist/enthusiast before I got involved professionally.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

His faith isn't terribly congruent with the real world, and he'll simply be unable to understand various practical objections. His solutions work for him, and he can't grasp why they might not work for others.

Reminds me of what Chesterton said about a persons ideals. "There is only one thing new that can be done under the sun; and that is to look at the sun. If you attempt it on a blue day in June, you will know why men do not look straight at their ideals."

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I still use a Palm OS PDA.

That's dedication, right there.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Down the road, I expect to see a unit that will be in a phone form factor, and will in fact be a phone, but will be powerful enough that you'll be able to plug it into a dock with attached keyboard, mouse, big monitor, and NAS, and it will be your main computer.

That is basically what Ubuntu wanted to do with their Ubuntu Edge device. It's certainly not a bad idea. Microsoft and their hardware partners have been flirting with similar or related ideas with their 2 in 1 devices, Surface devices, and other interesting convergence devices. None are particularly appealing to me, but it is early days.

[RCmedic52]

Two weeks ago I talked with a computer consultant about win8 and the several UN-friendly user issues I have encountered. He advised to wait for the win9. It seems it is the ("repaired win8") that the win8 should have come out as. There was a rush and not all of the kinks were worked out before hand.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by RCmedic52

Two weeks ago I talked with a computer consultant about win8 and the several UN-friendly user issues I have encountered. He advised to wait for the win9. It seems it is the ("repaired win8") that the win8 should have come out as. There was a rush and not all of the kinks were worked out before hand.

Most gargantuan projects like an OS can feel like a rush. Internally, a lot of the time they ARE a rush, even when they have been working on it for years just due to the nature of the beast.

Windows 8 will be the Windows Vista of Windows 7 to Windows 9 (perhaps!). Vista was a solid platform that got a far worse rap than it really deserved, but Windows 7 came along, tweaked a few things, made a few platform changes, and Boom! people love it. We may see something similar with the 8-Threshold transition.

[Glorfindel]

W9 is to be released next week

[alanHd]

Next windows to be called windows10. Wonder what happened to 9

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29431412

[Glorfindel]

That's odd.
I wonder why they did that huh::

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Glorfindel

That's odd.
I wonder why they did that huh::

Makes it seem like more changed.

[eschwartz]

Windows 10 sounds like it might actually be exciting for a change.

Fifteen years later.... http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-21st-century/
Now we can do basic copy-paste!! (!!!)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Windows 10 sounds like it might actually be exciting for a change.

Fifteen years later.... http://arstechnica.com/information-t...-21st-century/
Now we can do basic copy-paste!! (!!!)

4NT has been doing this for as long as 4NT has been released. The current version is called TCC LE and is FREE!