US Judge orders Microsoft to hand over data stored in Ireland

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The court requested information that does not belong to Microsoft, that is stored in another country. How is the order not against the information?

The information wasn't ordered to appear. Microsoft was ordered to produce it.

Is that really too complicated for you?

[taustin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

And if all you're interested in is the legality, then there's nothing to discuss or debate, since it's currently legal.

Under US law. Perhaps. Under Irish law, apparently not.

That's the conflict.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

The information wasn't ordered to appear. Microsoft was ordered to produce it.

Is that really too complicated for you?

MS doesn't have the legal right in Ireland to copy the data to hand over to a foreign country, and US courts don't have jurisdiction in Ireland.

The judge can't ask MS to break the law.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

MS doesn't have the legal right in Ireland to copy the data to hand over to a foreign country, and US courts don't have jurisdiction in Ireland.

The judge didn't order anyone in Ireland to do anything. He ordered Microsoft in the United States to provide information accessible to Microsoft employees who live and work in the United States, and who can access that information without leaving the United States to do so and provide that information to the court.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The judge can't ask MS to break the law.

He didn't ask. His order was valid under US law, and handed down to a US company, ordering people living in the US to perform actions that he is allowed to order them to perform under US law.

What is so difficult to understand about this? There is no single action that will not break the law. Microsoft is caught between conflicting laws. They cannot obey all the laws that apply. To obey Irish law, they must violate US law. To obey US law, they must violate Irish law. That is the point. There is a conflict in the laws of the two countries, and Microsoft is caught up in it, and can't do anything about it. They must break the law, because it is impossible for them to obey all laws.

Your position is that Irish law takes precedence over US law in a US court. That is a naïve position.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

The judge didn't order anyone in Ireland to do anything. He ordered Microsoft in the United States to provide information accessible to Microsoft employees who live and work in the United States, and who can access that information without leaving the United States to do so and provide that information to the court.



He didn't ask. His order was valid under US law, and handed down to a US company, ordering people living in the US to perform actions that he is allowed to order them to perform under US law.

What is so difficult to understand about this? There is no single action that will not break the law. Microsoft is caught between conflicting laws. They cannot obey all the laws that apply. To obey Irish law, they must violate US law. To obey US law, they must violate Irish law. That is the point. There is a conflict in the laws of the two countries, and Microsoft is caught up in it, and can't do anything about it. They must break the law, because it is impossible for them to obey all laws.

Your position is that Irish law takes precedence over US law in a US court. That is a naïve position.

MS exists both in the US and in Ireland at the same time. The data center where the information is stored is in Ireland, and under Irish jurisdiction. US courts have no business telling MS what to do with the data stored in Ireland.

And even though employees in the US could access the information, if employees in Ireland allow it they would be breaking the law, which means that MS would be breaking the law, which means that the US court can't ask MS to break Irish law in Ireland by giving the information to the US court.

There is a very simple action that will not result in breaking the law: the appeal succeeds, because the US court's order is not applicable in this situation since it does not have jurisdiction in Ireland.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

MS exists both in the US and in Ireland at the same time. The data center where the information is stored is in Ireland, and under Irish jurisdiction. US courts have no business telling MS what to do with the data stored in Ireland.

And even though employees in the US could access the information, if employees in Ireland allow it they would be breaking the law, which means that MS would be breaking the law, which means that the US court can't ask MS to break Irish law in Ireland by giving the information to the US court.

There is a very simple action that will not result in breaking the law: the appeal succeeds, because the US court's order is not applicable in this situation since it does not have jurisdiction in Ireland.

Regardless, the US is fully within its rights to demand anything they want within the US legal system from the US employees.

You are, however, doing an excellent job of explaining the dilemma Microsoft is in regarding breaking US law to follow Irish law. Now just go one step further and repeat after me: "Additionally:

"And even though employees in Ireland could deny access to the information, if employees in Ireland do not allow it the US employees would be breaking the law, which means that the Irish court can't ask MS to break US law in the US by not giving the information to the US court."

I would like to point out that MS exists both in the US and in Ireland at the same time. The data center where the information is accessible is in the US, and under US jurisdiction. Irish courts have no business telling MS what to do with the data accessible in the US.

And now, hopefully, you have gotten an idea of how there is no solution for MS. Anything they do will automatically break the law somewhere.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Regardless, the US is fully within its rights to demand anything they want within the US legal system from the US employees.

You are, however, doing an excellent job of explaining the dilemma Microsoft is in regarding breaking US law to follow Irish law. Now just go one step further and repeat after me: "Additionally:

"And even though employees' in Ireland could deny access to the information, if employees in Ireland do not allow it the US employees would be breaking the law, which means that the Irish court can't ask MS to break US law in the US by not giving the information to the US court."

I would like to point out that MS exists both in the US and in Ireland at the same time. The data center where the information is accessible is in the US, and under US jurisdiction. Irish courts have no business telling MS what to do with the data accessible in the US.

And now, hopefully, you have gotten an idea of how there is no solution for MS. Anything they do will automatically break the law somewhere.

Since the data is in Ireland, the employees who have control of the US employees access to the data are in Ireland, and the order is aimed at those that control the data. Since the US court doesn't have jurisdiction over the people in Ireland the order does not apply.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

MS exists both in the US and in Ireland at the same time.

That is what creates the conflict, yes.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The data center where the information is stored is in Ireland, and under Irish jurisdiction. US courts have no business telling MS what to do with the data stored in Ireland.

US law says otherwise.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

And even though employees in the US could access the information, if employees in Ireland allow it

I would imagine that no action is required on the part of any Irish employees for US employees to access the information, so "allow" is a meaningless word in this context.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

they would be breaking the law, which means that MS would be breaking the law, which means that the US court can't ask MS to break Irish law in Ireland by giving the information to the US court.

US law says otherwise.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

There is a very simple action that will not result in breaking the law: the appeal succeeds, because the US court's order is not applicable in this situation since it does not have jurisdiction in Ireland.

There is another simple action, as well. The US prosecutor could make use of the treaty established specifically to cover this sort of thing by going to the Irish court and getting them to endorse the order.

You are, once again, demanding that Irish law take precedence over US law in a US court. This order is not even controversial under US law. It is naïve to expect what you expect.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Since the data is in Ireland, the employees who have control of the US employees access to the data are in Ireland,

Beyond taking the data center offline, or at least significant parts of it, why do you believe that?

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

and the order is aimed at those that control the data.

Well, there's your error. The order is not aimed at those that control the data. It is aimed at those who have access to it [B]who are subject to the court's authority.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Since the US court doesn't have jurisdiction over the people in Ireland the order does not apply.

US law says otherwise. You can keep repeating that mantra for as long as you want, it simply isn't true. There is nothing controversial or questionable about the order under US law. It is very straight forward, clear cut law, that has been in place for years. Wanting it to be otherwise won't make it true, no matter how much you, the prosecutor or the judge desire it.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

That is what creates the conflict, yes.



US law says otherwise.



I would imagine that no action is required on the part of any Irish employees for US employees to access the information, so "allow" is a meaningless word in this context.



US law says otherwise.



There is another simple action, as well. The US prosecutor could make use of the treaty established specifically to cover this sort of thing by going to the Irish court and getting them to endorse the order.

You are, once again, demanding that Irish law take precedence over US law in a US court. This order is not even controversial under US law. It is naïve to expect what you expect.

Yes, the US prosecutor could make use of the treaty established specifically to cover this sort of thing by going to the Irish court and getting them to endorse the order, because this is a matter for the Irish court to decide.

Originally Posted by taustin

Beyond taking the data center offline, or at least significant parts of it, why do you believe that?



Well, there's your error. The order is not aimed at those that control the data. It is aimed at those who have access to it [B]who are subject to the court's authority.



US law says otherwise. You can keep repeating that mantra for as long as you want, it simply isn't true. There is nothing controversial or questionable about the order under US law. It is very straight forward, clear cut law, that has been in place for years. Wanting it to be otherwise won't make it true, no matter how much you, the prosecutor or the judge desire it.

The judge stated that "It is a question of control, not a question of the location of that information". It is not a matter of access, it is a matter of control.

In order for the data to be accessible in this situation to US employees for the purpose of giving it to the court, the software that protects the data in Ireland must allow it, and that would be illegal in Ireland.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The judge stated that "It is a question of control, not a question of the location of that information". It is not a matter of access, it is a matter of control.

A distinction without a difference.

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

In order for the data to be accessible in this situation to US employees for the purpose of giving it to the court, the software that protects the data in Ireland must allow it, and that would be illegal in Ireland.

And illegal in the US to not do so. That is the conflict.

You have yet to explain why you believe Irish law takes precedence over US law in a US court.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

A distinction without a difference.

Then what is the meaning of this:

Originally Posted by taustin

Well, there's your error. The order is not aimed at those that control the data. It is aimed at those who have access to it [B]who are subject to the court's authority.

Originally Posted by taustin

And illegal in the US to not do so. That is the conflict.

You have yet to explain why you believe Irish law takes precedence over US law in a US court.

The data is not in the US. The proper procedure is for the US court to ask the Irish court to get the information. All legal, no conflict.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The data is not in the US. The proper procedure is for the US court to ask the Irish court to get the information. All legal, no conflict.

The order is, again, not even controversial under US law. Not even a little bit.

That is the conflict.

I can keep repeating that as long as you can keep pretending otherwise.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

The order is, again, not even controversial under US law. Not even a little bit.

That is the conflict.

I can keep repeating that as long as you can keep pretending otherwise.

It is controversial. That is the basis for the appeal.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

It is controversial. That is the basis for the appeal.

Very true. A corporation will get into controversy about absolutely anything, even perfectly legal things. This time they actually have a good reason -- although that still doesn't make it even remotely against US law.