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Old 09-05-2014, 10:01 PM   #166
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But I concede that maybe Kobo has specifically broken/removed it their hidden and unknown kepub specification as they have broken widows and orphans, page-break-whatever CSS property, support for several chapters (toc entries) in the same html file which plays wrong with the in-chapter page numbering and chapter jumping features,...

So yes, maybe they are not allowed in kepubs, even if kepubs are supposed to be better than epubs. Who knows.
Actually, there is https://github.com/kobolabs/epub-spec. It is as much a user guide for people submitting books as a spec, but it does have some details. The TOC section says that they will generate a TOC entry for any spine entry that is not in the TOC.ncx. As they do that, it doesn't surprise me that they would eliminate duplicate TOC entries.

I am with the others and feel it is an error in the book if there are two TOC entries pointing to the same place. I can't see the point. I do have books with multiple TOC entries pointing to the same page. These are for things like "Part I" followed immediately by "Chapter 1". They open the book to the same page, but are using different anchors.
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Old 09-05-2014, 11:48 PM   #167
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I knew that ACCESS is in theory an epub3 renderer (although epub3 has not killed widows and orphans, doesn't it?, but Kobo/ACCESS has... ). And I also knew that ncx are not "used" in epub3.

But in any case, I have a "pure" epub2 book, so unless you are fully crazy in your software design, even if it is an epub3 reader, it should work with the old epub2 books. So it should work even if the book doesn't include any kind of the new and improved ncx-like whatever ToC format (because as already said it's not an epub3 book but an epub2 one...). So it should work with the repeated toc entries which are explicitly mentioned in epub2+ncx spec, (unless I'm making some mistake somewhere).
EPUB3 compliant rendering engines will attempt to render EPUB2 content. But there is a gotcha -- there are several areas where the standard changes how the renderer behaves. This would be like expecting your HTML5 web browser to display HTML4 code exactly as a HTML4 web browser would.

There is quite a bit of information on generating EPUB3 and EPUB2/3 books available so I am not going to waste both our time re-inventing the wheel.

Regards,
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:33 AM   #168
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I've been noticing that some new eBooks are being made as ePub 3 which is rather (IMHO) silly because there's nothing in them that need to be ePub 3 instead of ePub 2. However, it's fairly easy to switch them back to ePub 2 and do away with unnecessarily being ePub 3.
EPUB 3.0 has much better metadata options, which makes dealing with series much more robust...at least in theory.
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Old 09-06-2014, 05:12 AM   #169
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EPUB 3.0 has much better metadata options (...) ... at least in theory.
Hi,

Still trying to work out the metadata scheme in epub3... and still hoping idpf gives advice about "translated from"

Well December is not thar far anymore

François
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Old 09-06-2014, 07:33 AM   #170
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Hey, 'text-align:center' now works in kepubs.
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:13 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
EPUB 3.0 has much better metadata options, which makes dealing with series much more robust...at least in theory.
Yep, in theory. Kobo hardly displays metadata. Only the description, language and format. All other metadata is not displayed. Maybe when using kepubs that one or two additional metadata tags are displayed but if true, it is still too limited.

BTW, I noticed they reintroduced the-blank-line-after-a-p-tag in the metadata description.

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Originally Posted by pgaunt View Post
Hey, 'text-align:center' now works in kepubs.
Amazing, finally! But will it stay that way with future firmware updates?
Last edited by Anak; 09-06-2014 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 09-06-2014, 08:20 AM   #172
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Yep, in theory. Kobo hardly displays metadata. Only the description, language and format. All other metadata is not displayed. Maybe when using kepubs that one or two additional metadata tags are displayed but if true, it is still to limited.
No, Kobo doesn't read the other metadata from sideloaded books. If the device database contains the series info, the publisher, published date and ISBN, it will be displayed.
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:30 PM   #173
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EPUB 3.0 has much better metadata options, which makes dealing with series much more robust...at least in theory.
Still, it's not needed to be ePub 3. The thing is, to turn it back to an ePub 2 and get rid of the internal ToC and the excess code that we do not need.
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:09 PM   #174
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Still, it's not needed to be ePub 3. The thing is, to turn it back to an ePub 2 and get rid of the internal ToC and the excess code that we do not need.
Well, if you want to use the extra EPUB 3 features that EPUB 2 doesn't have...yeah, it kinda needs to be an EPUB 3.
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:32 PM   #175
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Still trying to work out the metadata scheme in epub3... and still hoping idpf gives advice about "translated from"
As far as I can tell, the spec only cares about the document's current language, not what it was translated from. Thus, a US English translation of Dante's Inferno is an en-US document with no mention of its Italian origins. Makes sense to me, since there's no Italian content - and if there were, you'd treat it as a multilingual document, which the spec already handles.
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Old 09-07-2014, 12:37 AM   #176
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Well, if you want to use the extra EPUB 3 features that EPUB 2 doesn't have...yeah, it kinda needs to be an EPUB 3.
The point is that there is no reason for these eBooks to be ePub 3 because they do not make use of any actual ePub 3 features. The ePub 3 nav ToC is a very stupid change. The NCX works so much better. And because of making these eBooks to ePub 3, they have to be converted back to ePub 2 in order to get rid of that nav ToC. The ePub already has the NCX so there's no need for it to be ePub 3. Nothing in the OPF metadata says it needs to be ePub 3. It's not hard to go back to ePub 2. It just requires editing the OPF header. Not difficult if you copy/paste from an ePub 2 OPF. Then you can get rid of the excess meta data and the excess ToC.

What I think should have been done was to extend ePub 2 into ePub 3 and not actually change things that worked fine as is.
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Old 09-07-2014, 01:18 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
The point is that there is no reason for these eBooks to be ePub 3 because they do not make use of any actual ePub 3 features. [...] It's not hard to go back to ePub 2. It just requires editing the OPF header. Not difficult if you copy/paste from an ePub 2 OPF. Then you can get rid of the excess meta data and the excess ToC.
So, to translate - all you have to do to turn a v3 EPUB into a v2 EPUB is get rid of all the v3 stuff and replace it with v2 stuff. Or - wacky idea, but hear me out - you could just leave it alone, since it's got everything a v2 reader needs, so a v2 reader will handle it just fine. I sideload v3 EPUBs onto my Glo, and they work just fine, as long as they're set up to degrade properly - which the reputable publishers who're distributing v3 do, precisely so their books WILL work on existing readers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf
What I think should have been done was to extend ePub 2 into ePub 3 and not actually change things that worked fine as is.
That's, um, exactly what they did. That's why v3 permits the NCX file, as a fallback for v2 readers (which will ignore the nav TOC, so you don't need to get rid of it). It's a very common practice - even a necessary one - during periods of transition from one version to the next.
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Old 09-07-2014, 01:57 AM   #178
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Actually, there is https://github.com/kobolabs/epub-spec. It is as much a user guide for people submitting books as a spec, but it does have some details. The TOC section says that they will generate a TOC entry for any spine entry that is not in the TOC.ncx. As they do that, it doesn't surprise me that they would eliminate duplicate TOC entries.

I am with the others and feel it is an error in the book if there are two TOC entries pointing to the same place. I can't see the point. I do have books with multiple TOC entries pointing to the same page. These are for things like "Part I" followed immediately by "Chapter 1". They open the book to the same page, but are using different anchors.
OK, all of you have convinced me: redundant ToC entries are a bug (in fact when I discovered the "issue" it was a real bug in the ncx). It doesn't matter if a strict lecture of epub2 spec might allow it. With time and usage, the world, the community, whatever, have decided it must not be done. Using different fragment links to consecutive anchors in the book, (as JSWolf posted), is the way to go if you want this apparent behaviour without risking incompatibilities...

But then, KOBO HAS A BUG IN THE NAVIGATION BAR, (as I posted quite long ago because I suffered it in a real book).

If you have "Part I.html" which contains a lot of "Chapters" and the toc.ncx is perfectly built through fragment id links, we all agree that we have a perfect valid epub2 book, don't we? (I mean nothing in epub2 spec says that every toc entry must be a different html file, "subdivisions" on each html file are perfectly valid).

And nothing in the link you've posted, davidfor, says anything against it. But in that case, if you sideload that perfectly valid epub as kepub you get:
  • In the footer: Chapter 1 - Page xx of number of pages of the chapter. I mean between this fragment id link and the next. OK. no troubles here.
  • In the navigation bar:
    • It is scaled with that same number of pages. And it also shows Page xx of the Chapter. Till now, no problems, coherent design here.
    • But instead of "Chapter whatever" it says "Part whatever"!!!, I mean the parent html link of the toc.ncx. And in fact the double arrows jump to "Part 2", "Part 3",... There's no way to just jump one chapter...
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Old 09-07-2014, 02:07 AM   #179
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So, to translate - all you have to do to turn a v3 EPUB into a v2 EPUB is get rid of all the v3 stuff and replace it with v2 stuff. Or - wacky idea, but hear me out - you could just leave it alone, since it's got everything a v2 reader needs, so a v2 reader will handle it just fine. I sideload v3 EPUBs onto my Glo, and they work just fine, as long as they're set up to degrade properly - which the reputable publishers who're distributing v3 do, precisely so their books WILL work on existing readers.
But if I leave it as an ePub 3, there's no way to get rid of yet another useless ToC.

Quote:
That's, um, exactly what they did. That's why v3 permits the NCX file, as a fallback for v2 readers (which will ignore the nav TOC, so you don't need to get rid of it). It's a very common practice - even a necessary one - during periods of transition from one version to the next.
They didn't just add new features leaving alone the features that worked as is. If they did that, the nav ToC would not exist. What they could have done was a sort of combined NCX and nav together so the NCX ToC could have been able to have been formatted and left externally like the ncx is in ePub 2. That would have made much more sense. But thn again, this comes from the people (totally clueless) who feel eBooks should be a virtual multimedia experience.
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Old 09-07-2014, 03:04 AM   #180
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But if I leave it as an ePub 3, there's no way to get rid of yet another useless ToC.
Dude, the nav document is what...ten K, at most? That's totally insignificant. Leaving it in doesn't hurt anything.

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They didn't just add new features leaving alone the features that worked as is. If they did that, the nav ToC would not exist. What they could have done was a sort of combined NCX and nav together so the NCX ToC could have been able to have been formatted and left externally like the ncx is in ePub 2. That would have made much more sense.
Actually, not at all accurate. They added a new feature (the nav TOC) and left the old version (NCX) alone, which is exactly what you say you want but then rant about getting. Combining them would've broken backward compatibility, which is a big Not Do.

Ever heard the saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? Yeah, um, you have "a little knowledge" on this one.
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