Amazon vs. Hachette Update - It's About Price

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Manabi

Oh I don't know, I've managed to confuse Amazon so badly on my account that they recommend all kinds of weird stuff to me that I'm not remotely interested in.

I hear ya. I look at one book and suddenly the home page is flooded with similar and sometimes not so similar books. Looking doesn't mean I'm interested; but buying does.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Same here -- what's your point?

Amazon is not in a race to the bottom; on the contrary, they believe in minimum price points.

Amazon sells and markets specific books, not "parts is parts". They have spent a lot of money investing in a system to figure out which specific books people want. If the consumer wants a fork, Amazon doesn't want to futilely try selling them a spoon.

Speaking as a consumer interested in the future of books as a quality product, I call FUD.

My point is that I am a consumer, I don't like Amazon's race to the bottom pricing. Ergo, simply assuming that your point of view is the default generic point of view is a fallacy. Simply crying FUD in an attempt to dismiss the view of someone you disagree with is also a form of FUD, you know.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

My point is that I am a consumer, I don't like Amazon's race to the bottom pricing. Ergo, simply assuming that your point of view is the default generic point of view is a fallacy. Simply crying FUD in an attempt to dismiss the view of someone you disagree with is also a form of FUD, you know.

Huh? If you are a consumer and you dislike Amazon's prices, then why don't you just NOT buy anything from them that is too cheap. Or don't buy anything from Amazon on principle. If you can convince a large amount of other consumers to do the same, maybe you will help reduce Amazon's big market share. I am afraid though that the majority of Amazon customers are just happy with them, otherwise they would not be Amazon customers.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

I am afraid though that the majority of Amazon customers are just happy with them, otherwise they would not be Amazon customers.

I don't patronize businesses out of happiness.

Neither do Amazon executives. If they did, they wouldn't buy so many books from big publishers.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

I don't patronize businesses out of happiness.

Neither do Amazon executives. If they did, they wouldn't buy so many books from big publishers.

What does make you decide whether or not to patronize a business, then? I can honestly say that if I'm not happy with a business for some reason, chances are I won't give them my business.

That being said, I am talking as an individual here. As a business owner, if one of my clients really really wants to buy hardware from a certain vendor or manufacturer I am not going to stop doing business with that client because I don't like who they do business with...and I believe it's the same thing with Amazon. I would try to talk my client out of purchasing their servers from an anonymous seller on ebay, even going so far as to send out an email itemizing why I think it's a bad idea. In the end, though, I will still support the hardware as well as I can...I see Amazon as being in the same position. They are trying to talk their customers out of it...even going so far as to send out an email detailing the issues that they are having, but if their customers want to buy books from Hachette, Amazon will sell them. Just like I will support the crappy ebay servers.

Shari

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Huh? If you are a consumer and you dislike Amazon's prices, then why don't you just NOT buy anything from them that is too cheap. Or don't buy anything from Amazon on principle. If you can convince a large amount of other consumers to do the same, maybe you will help reduce Amazon's big market share. I am afraid though that the majority of Amazon customers are just happy with them, otherwise they would not be Amazon customers.

Because like a lot of people in this world, I'm not a black and white, single issue consumer, nor do I confuse buying cat grass with buying books. Some items are commodities and some items are not. If I ran around boycotting businesses because I don't like the way they do one specific thing, then I wouldn't have very many places left to buy things.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Because like a lot of people in this world, I'm not a black and white, single issue consumer, nor do I confuse buying cat grass with buying books. Some items are commodities and some items are not. If I ran around boycotting businesses because I don't like the way they do one specific thing, then I wouldn't have very many places left to buy things.

Huh? You don't like the way Amazon sells cheap ebooks, and you don't believe in boycotting them since you also buy cat grass. So instead of buying your ebooks from a different vendor with more acceptable (by your standards) prices, you still by them cheap from Amazon?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Huh? You don't like the way Amazon sells cheap ebooks, and you don't believe in boycotting them since you also buy cat grass. So instead of buying your ebooks from a different vendor with more acceptable (by your standards) prices, you still by them cheap from Amazon?

You still seem to have this boycott if a vendor does anything you don't approve of mindset. Why should I boycott Amazon? I gave up on insisting of perfection a long time ago. I don't mind Amazon selling cheap ebooks, I just don't like Amazon trying to force down the price of quality ebooks to cheap ebook levels. I think that writers that I enjoy reading should be able to make a good living writing. That way they will write more books for me to read.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by shalym

What does make you decide whether or not to patronize a business, then? I can honestly say that if I'm not happy with a business for some reason, chances are I won't give them my business.

For a business selling hard goods, it's the same thing that makes Amazon decide whether to order the next batch of Hachette hardcovers from wholesalers like Baker and Taylor, and Ingram, or from Hachette itself. Price. Perhaps I'm in the right there, perhaps I'm in the wrong. Anyway, it's not about me.

Now, if it's a plumber or roofer, I do pay more for someone I trust.

[TGS]

The issue just made it to BBC Radio 4 Today programme, with an extended explanatory piece.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

You still seem to have this boycott if a vendor does anything you don't approve of mindset. Why should I boycott Amazon? I gave up on insisting of perfection a long time ago. I don't mind Amazon selling cheap ebooks, I just don't like Amazon trying to force down the price of quality ebooks to cheap ebook levels. I think that writers that I enjoy reading should be able to make a good living writing. That way they will write more books for me to read.

I am talking about the low price high quality ebooks. They are not forcing the price down, they simply sell *some* books cheaper than others. And explain to me why the author is not making a good living when the publisher is getting paid about the same for wholesale or agency model.

It is the publisher that raises book prices by doing agency and they don't get paid more than before. But there will be less books sold when prices are higher.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

I am talking about the low price high quality ebooks. They are not forcing the price down, they simply sell *some* books cheaper than others. And explain to me why the author is not making a good living when the publisher is getting paid about the same for wholesale or agency model.

It is the publisher that raises book prices by doing agency and they don't get paid more than before. But there will be less books sold when prices are higher.

I don't think that you have been paying attention to the subject of this thread. Part of what Amazon is demanding from Hatchette is that Hatchette reduce the wholesale price that Hatchette charges Amazon. Amazon very much is trying to push the price down to commodity levels. That's how they make a buck. They don't make money by selling ebooks for less than the wholesale price. That was just part of their method for establishing market dominance. Eventually, they either have to raise their prices, or force the publisher to lower the wholesale price.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I don't think that you have been paying attention to the subject of this thread.

Oh, believe me, I have paid attention. In a nutshell: if agency is going to be the new model, then the only thing left to talk about is retail price and cost to retailer. What else is there to talk about?

Part of what Amazon is demanding from Hatchette is that Hatchette reduce the wholesale price that Hatchette charges Amazon. Amazon very much is trying to push the price down to commodity levels. That's how they make a buck. They don't make money by selling ebooks for less than the wholesale price.

And there I thought you were in the pro-agency model group to protect whatever (HC prices, funding for specialist books, ...). From what you just said it sounds like you want the wholesale model back? Under agency model there is absolutely no way that Amazon can sell books cheaper than the price charged by the publisher. Think about it: Hachette charges $20 to Amazon for a book, but sets the price Amazon is allowed to sell it for $14.99 - not going to happen. And it is also not going to happen under agency that the retailer is forced to sell at cost.

That was just part of their method for establishing market dominance. Eventually, they either have to raise their prices, or force the publisher to lower the wholesale price.

I would not be so sure that Amazon's only reason for setting the prices low is for establishing market dominance. It is good for competition. Amazon is not making a secret out of how they discount - any competitor will know that, and they will find ways to compete by offering different kind of discounts. They used to do that, you know, before Apple entered ebooks.

[tubemonkey]

Question for anyone:

Under Agency, how much did Amazon pay for books priced at $12.99? $14.99?

[darryl]

If you believe that Amazon is simply cutting prices to establish market dominance then you are being very optimistic from the point of the BWM's. Amazon is a direct competitor. It is now a major publisher in its own right. It appears to me that Amazon has created a whole new market for books priced from 0.99 to 9.99, and it is itself publishing most of the books to satisfy this market. It is also offering the vast majority of authors a much better deal than they can get with the BWM's, and without them relinquishing the intellectual propery in their work. Unless the BWM's get their act together very quickly and come up with a competitive business model they are doomed.