Amazon vs. Hachette Update - It's About Price

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So tell these publications to understand what's at stake before calling Amazon crazy. Look at it from the consumer point of view and see who's the one that's against the consumer.

Putting aside the questionable claim that "these publications" are calling Amazon crazy, I did just notice one piece of evidence that Amazon isn't crazy. Paul Ryan, a possible next president of the United States, came out with a Hachette campaign-type book two days ago. And it seems to be one of the few Hachette new releases where the hardcover is available for immediate shipment, and at a 39 percent discount from list:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Forwar...673084&sr=8-12

This is not meant as an endorsement of Ryan's book, which I have not read.

I do strongly recommend this next Hachette title, released last month, which I am close to finishing:

Factory Man: How One Furniture Maker Battled Offshoring, Stayed Local - and Helped Save an American Town

http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Man-Fu...8673878&sr=8-1

Unlike the book by the politician, this one has just a ten percent hardcover discount, plus a 1-3 week estimated ship time.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Putting aside the questionable claim that "these publications" are calling Amazon crazy, I did just notice one piece of evidence that Amazon isn't crazy. Paul Ryan, a possible next president of the United States, came out with a Hachette campaign-type book two days ago. And it seems to be one of the few Hachette new releases where the hardcover is available for immediate shipment, and at a 39 percent discount from list:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Forwar...673084&sr=8-12

This is not meant as an endorsement of Ryan's book, which I have not read.

I do strongly recommend this next Hachette title, released last month, which I am close to finishing:

Factory Man: How One Furniture Maker Battled Offshoring, Stayed Local - and Helped Save an American Town

http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Man-Fu...8673878&sr=8-1

Unlike the book by the politician, this one has just a ten percent hardcover discount, plus a 1-3 week estimated ship time.

Publishing a book by Paul Ryan just dropped Hatchette into the crazy category and dropped them down in my opinion. I could go on to say what a nut case Paul Ryan is and that he is dangerous as a politician for the United States, but I won't as this is not the appropriate forum for that.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Keep eBook prices reasonable and more people will buy. Keep eBook prices high and more people will look to the net for them.

That's not an opinion. That's a fact.

So? That is nothing new. No matter how reasonable you set prices, there will always be those looking on the 'net to get their entitled free copy of the book. That predates ebooks for sale, that even predates the internet itself. Before the internet there was illegal electronic books on BBSs.

No matter how low, you will never get rid of piracy. If the higher prices drive you yourself into piracy, that is your choice and your choice alone. You will also then deal with any consequences and risks that result from that choice.

Since it is inevitable that piracy occurs, selling ebooks unreasonably low will hurt as well.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Keep eBook prices reasonable and more people will buy. Keep eBook prices high and more people will look to the net for them.

That's not an opinion. That's a fact.

What's reasonable?

15% below the cheapest paper edition? 25%? Should the price of the paper edition even be part of the equation?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

So? That is nothing new. No matter how reasonable you set prices, there will always be those looking on the 'net to get their entitled free copy of the book. That predates ebooks for sale, that even predates the internet itself. Before the internet there was illegal electronic books on BBSs.

No matter how low, you will never get rid of piracy. If the higher prices drive you yourself into piracy, that is your choice and your choice alone. You will also then deal with any consequences and risks that result from that choice.

Since it is inevitable that piracy occurs, selling ebooks unreasonably low will hurt as well.

I didn't say unreasonably low. I said REASONABLE price. Of course there will be piracy. But there will be LESS piracy if eBooks are sold at a REASONABLE price. Agency is unreasonable.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

What's reasonable?

15% below the cheapest paper edition? 25%? Should the price of the paper edition even be part of the equation?

The problem with using the price of the paperback editions is that the BPHs are using these non-mass market formats that they can then try to justify keeping the prices higher then $7.99. All it is is price gouging for paperbacks that just are awful as they look funny, don't feel good to hold, and don't fit in the bookcase.

So if we go my mass market prices for pBooks when in paperback (no matter the cost/format) and hardcover, It wouldn't be unreasonable to say $11.99 for the eBook when the pBook is in hardcover and $5.99 when the pBook is in paperback (any price, any format as long as it's paperback). This is for current books only.

Backlist eBooks when the pBook is out of print, $3.99.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Agency is unreasonable.

Says you, and many hard core enthusiasts I'm sure agree. Heck I found a lot of the prices higher than I'm willing to pay, but I still do even without Agency.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I could go on to say what a nut case Paul Ryan is and that he is dangerous as a politician for the United States, but I won't as this is not the appropriate forum for that.

Spot on assessment

* edit: edited out first sentence which was never meant to be quoted

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Publishing a book by Paul Ryan just dropped Hatchette into the crazy category and dropped them down in my opinion. I could go on to say what a nut case Paul Ryan is and that he is dangerous as a politician for the United States, but I won't as this is not the appropriate forum for that.

You call Hachette crazy over that? There will be a lot of those books sold purely based on the fact that he is campaigning. It won't just be supporters of him either. Especially those that oppose him will buy the book, just to have evidence in their hand to make their point. As a business transaction taking the book under contract was a pretty wise decision of Hachette.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So if we go my mass market prices for pBooks when in paperback (no matter the cost/format) and hardcover, It wouldn't be unreasonable to say $11.99 for the eBook when the pBook is in hardcover and $5.99 when the pBook is in paperback (any price, any format as long as it's paperback). This is for current books only.

Backlist eBooks when the pBook is out of print, $3.99.

Do BHP's even publish backlist stuff that they don't also have in print in paper?

So even without Agency like we are now many/most books don't fit your criteria on price so is it Agency you're against or the prices in general?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Do BHP's even publish backlist stuff that they don't also have in print in paper?

So even without Agency like we are now many/most books don't fit your criteria on price so is it Agency you're against or the prices in general?

eBooks should be priced lower then pBooks because of the restrictions placed on eBooks that pBooks do not have. The BPHs have DRM, they don't allow resale, they don't allow loaning, and they don't always have a real cover. These restrictions mean that the eBook is less valuable as property then the pBook. So the price should be lower to reflect this.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

eBooks should be priced lower then pBooks because of the restrictions placed on eBooks that pBooks do not have. The BPHs have DRM, they don't allow resale, they don't allow loaning, and they don't always have a real cover. These restrictions mean that the eBook is less valuable as property then the pBook. So the price should be lower to reflect this.

Yes, yes, and you could argue instead that pBooks should cost less than eBooks because they are bulky, you can't read them if you leave them at home, the dictionary lookup is cumbersome, the font enlarger (magnifying glass) is too hard to use and the tech is just so middle ages.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

eBooks should be priced lower then pBooks because of the restrictions placed on eBooks that pBooks do not have. The BPHs have DRM, they don't allow resale, they don't allow loaning, and they don't always have a real cover. These restrictions mean that the eBook is less valuable as property then the pBook. So the price should be lower to reflect this.

In your mind, ebooks are devalued for all those reasons. In my mind, none of those reasons are germane. I format shift my ebooks, so restrictions and DRM don't matter. I don't read then resell. I rarely loan books and the majority of my ebooks have the cover art. What makes ebooks more valuable to me are - I can carry my library around with me where ever I go. They don't take up space in my house. I can change the font size to a size that is comfortable for me to read.

Hum, maybe they ought to charge more....

Two of the classic products where customers have vastly different pricing points is cars and watches. I personally see no real reason to spend 50K + for a car, but I'm also not looking for the cheapest car that I can find. I have certain features in a car that it has to have, or I'm not buying it. Some people go for the $10 Casio watches, while others go for the $10K Rolex watch.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

What makes ebooks more valuable to me are - I can carry my library around with me where ever I go. They don't take up space in my house. I can change the font size to a size that is comfortable for me to read.

What makes ebooks valuable to me is that I don't have to pay for them. I just love to devalue ebooks, hoping that authors churn out junk because publishers can no longer afford to pay them their true worth.

What surprises me is how hardcovers can be discounted 40% and never suffer being devalued.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

What makes ebooks valuable to me is that I don't have to pay for them. I just love to devalue ebooks, hoping that authors churn out junk because publishers can no longer afford to pay them their true worth.

What surprises me is how hardcovers can be discounted 40% and never suffer being devalued.

Mostly, that's what's known as the remainder bin, i.e. stock they couldn't sale at the normal price, so they discount trying to get rid of existing stock. Of course, for a while, everyone discounting the hard back price of major best sellers, _did_ devalue the hard back books, which may be part of why big book stores had trouble staying in business. They needed high margin sells to cover their overhead.