Dutch judge allows sale of used ebooks

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by tompe

Ebooks deteriorate in the sense that newer editions will have fewer errors.

Most commonly I think this happens with textbooks.

In theory, you could create a form of DRM where every time you transfer the book, a there is programmed deterioration -- say, one word in 400 changed at random. But in practice, buyers would not stand for this.

The truth is, Tom Kabinet is not selling used eBooks, any more than Kobo is. The electrons are not being transfered from the old owner to the new owner. They can't be, because coping an eBook file doesn't involve any movement of even the lightest particles from one place to another.*

Originally Posted by hardcastle

I wish Amazon/Nook/Kobo and the like would stand behind formatting and no-typo quality of their files.

Or Tom Kabinet could do it, making so-called used better than new!

____________________
* While eBooks are theorized to have an incredibly tiny weight, it has to do with energy, not matter.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by crich70

True, but I'd guess that it could set a precedent that other countries could follow in the future, and some aspects of copyright law are international even though different countries have different lengths of copyright protection after the author has died, so I could see other courts in different countries following or not following the Dutch judge's lead.

This has nothing to do with copyright law: it's a matter of tort law - contract law.

When you purchase an ebook from a bookstore, you're purchasing a personal licence to read it, and the contact you're entering into with the bookstore says that the licence cannot be transferred to another person. What the Dutch court has essentially done is to say that this contract is invalid, and that the licence is in fact transferable. It's not a copyright issue.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

Most commonly I think this happens with textbooks.

I know it happens with fiction books. For example for each new edition Charles Stross usually collects errors from his readers by asking on his blog and make sure they are corrected in a new edition.

I also assume that publishers get feedback.

Another way to make new editions more valuable for a reader is to include more extra material like introductions and enhancement to the X-ray information.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This has nothing to do with copyright law: it's a matter of tort law - contract law.

I thought tort law was distinct from contract law. And I thought that copyright law, when not criminal, WAS tort law (i.e. laws pertaining to civil wrongs other than contracts).

It's not a copyright issue.

I have not read anything on the case. Are we sure that the rights defined in copyright law are not what informed the judges decision on the validity of the license terms? Seems like it would have to be involved.

ApK

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

I thought tort law was distinct from contract law. And I thought that copyright law, when not criminal, WAS tort law (i.e. laws pertaining to civil wrongs other than contracts).

Perhaps I have my terminology wrong, in which case please accept my apologies. Contract law is what I meant.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by tompe

I know it happens with fiction books. For example for each new edition Charles Stross usually collects errors from his readers by asking on his blog and make sure they are corrected in a new edition.

I also assume that publishers get feedback.

Another way to make new editions more valuable for a reader is to include more extra material like introductions and enhancement to the X-ray information.

How much more would most people pay for an introduction which many books have already, and many don't read instead of the 'used' book. Or for the correction of a few errors. And how would publishers announce the new improved version, which in many cases is provided to previous purchasers who would then be selling the same thing without looking foolish?

They could say we have fixed these errors so buy a new book today because it will be several days before you can buy the new improved used ebook?

Helen

[Section8]

If a used ebook system were to actually be implemented, I would expect it to work similar to the way public libraries use overdrive and DRM to enforce limits on ebook availability.

And yes, anyone capable of removing DRM could abuse the system and retain copies of ebooks they've sold back. But such people are probably already capable of finding and downloading illegal copies of ebooks if they are so inclined.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Section8

If a used ebook system were to actually be implemented, I would expect it to work similar to the way public libraries use overdrive and DRM to enforce limits on ebook availability.

And yes, anyone capable of removing DRM could abuse the system and retain copies of ebooks they've sold back. But such people are probably already capable of finding and downloading illegal copies of ebooks if they are so inclined.

I expect you are right in both instances.

I don't think keeping a copy would be considered a major problem as it is unlikely you would be buying another copy anyway. I just don't see any motivation for publishers or authors to allow it overall.

Helen

[crich70]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This has nothing to do with copyright law: it's a matter of tort law - contract law.

When you purchase an ebook from a bookstore, you're purchasing a personal licence to read it, and the contact you're entering into with the bookstore says that the licence cannot be transferred to another person. What the Dutch court has essentially done is to say that this contract is invalid, and that the licence is in fact transferable. It's not a copyright issue.

But at the same time doesn't that interfere with the publisher's right to be the source of said book? I mean the author holds the copyright (unless it's a series character that multiple author's write for under a pen name) but then the author has a contract to publish with publisher x as the source of copies of the book and then comes someone else who has a used copy to sell that takes revenue from the publisher and author by reselling a used ebook. And unlike paper you have to take it on their honor that that is the only copy of that book that is sold.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by crich70

But at the same time doesn't that interfere with the publisher's right to be the source of said book? I mean the author holds the copyright (unless it's a series character that multiple author's write for under a pen name) but then the author has a contract to publish with publisher x as the source of copies of the book and then comes someone else who has a used copy to sell that takes revenue from the publisher and author by reselling a used ebook. And unlike paper you have to take it on their honor that that is the only copy of that book that is sold.

The same book can't be sold twice by the same owner, and will receive another watermark when it is sold.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I see a number of potentially serious issues with this:

4. The "same" ebooks could be sold over and over. Buy one ebook, sell to infinite people as a "used" ebook

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by leebase

4. The "same" ebooks could be sold over and over. Buy one ebook, sell to infinite people as a "used" ebook

Not possible, the shop won't allow it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Not possible, the shop won't allow it.

If there is more than one shop, how would they check on each other if the book is not sold already? The only possibility would be that only DRM-ed ebooks are allowed to be sold, and that DRM license transfer would be done through Adobe if it's an EPUB or Amazon if it's an AZW3 book.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

If there is more than one shop, how would they check on each other if the book is not sold already? The only possibility would be that only DRM-ed ebooks are allowed to be sold, and that DRM license transfer would be done through Adobe if it's an EPUB or Amazon if it's an AZW3 book.

They use a watermark as DRM, and when a book is sold they will give it another watermark.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

They use a watermark as DRM, and when a book is sold they will give it another watermark.

I understand, but when I post the book at two or three different stores at once, they won't know if it's sold already in one of the others. I could sell it once at each store; until someone finds out of course.