Discounted eBooks if you own pBook version

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by auspex

Still, I saw "free or cheap". I'm not paying again for the thousand books I know I can find e-copies for

What do you mean by "find e-copies for"?

[drjenkins]

Originally Posted by auspex

LOL. I doubt there actually IS a program yet that could photoshop your signature onto the copyright page:

I think the program is called Photoshop.

A low tech cheat would be to sign an acetate sheet protector with a Sharpie and use it as an overlay when you take the picture.

Not that I'm advocating this, of course.

O'Reilly Media offers eBooks for $4.99 if you provide the barcode of the book you physically own. That seems like a pretty low standard for proof of ownership.

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What do you mean by "find e-copies for"?

Come on HarryT, use your imagination.

Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of people that don't know why there should be anything stopping them from "pirating" an ebook they already own in physical format. If they could scan their own book to make a personal copy, what's wrong with grabbing a copy someone else has taken the trouble of scanning...is what those nefarious ne'er do wells might say.

I'm going to out myself now, and admit that I used to "pirate" music I own on CD. Why? Because it was faster to download the MP3 than rip the CD. It didn't seem unreasonable that I should be able to grab a pirated version of a song I could have ripped anyway; there's nothing particularly magical about one set of bits over another.

With that sort of thinking (morally reprehensible though it may be), I can see this service running into some issues.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

Come on HarryT, use your imagination.

Honestly, I'm sure there's a lot of people that don't know why there should be anything stopping them from "pirating" an ebook they already own in physical format. If they could scan their own book to make a personal copy, what's wrong with grabbing a copy someone else has taken the trouble of scanning...is what those nefarious ne'er do wells might say.

Why on Earth would anyone think that the fact they'd bought a paper book somehow entitled them to a free eBook? The logic of that eludes me. It's a completely different medium.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why on Earth would anyone think that the fact they'd bought a paper book somehow entitled them to a free eBook? The logic of that eludes me. It's a completely different medium.

That is probably because you have made some hidden assumptions that are wrong. Think a bit more about it and you will understand how people reason. It was described in the post you commented.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by tompe

That is probably because you have made some hidden assumptions that are wrong. Think a bit more about it and you will understand how people reason. It was described in the post you commented.

Not exactly. You can grab used pbooks for nearly nothing in second hand shops. Grab one for nearly nothing, now you own it. Now you are entitled to your free copy in ebook?

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why on Earth would anyone think that the fact they'd bought a paper book somehow entitled them to a free eBook? The logic of that eludes me. It's a completely different medium.

...he said, clutching his pearls and wishing his fainting couch were closer at hand.

I don't know why the logic eludes you, it's an easy analogy from music to books. I know we think that books are special darlings, but some (ruffians of dubious intelligence) probably wouldn't feel morally perturbed by downloading a pirated copy of an ebook, rather than taking the time to scan it themselves, just like I (in my wild years) didn't see a problem downloading an MP3 rather than ripping the CD.

We're not talking about what is and isn't legal here, we're just talking about someone's reaction, and how that reaction could affect the service that is the subject of this thread. I just think that someone who might be interested in getting a digital version of a book they own may see little value in paying (even a discounted amount) for the digital version, if they don't have any particular qualms about converting media from one format to another.

You don't have to agree with the above (and no upstanding individual ever should), but it shouldn't be too hard to see how someone who makes a different set of value judgements could, and what affect that might have on this service.

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Not exactly. You can grab used pbooks for nearly nothing in second hand shops. Grab one for nearly nothing, now you own it. Now you are entitled to your free copy in ebook?

No one is talking about "entitlement". I meant to say that someone might feel morally okay in downloading a book they already own. If they can format shift a CD to an MP3, why not a book to an ebook?

Some (truly terrible individuals, I'm sure) would probably not have an issue with doing this format shifting with a used book, just like they might not have an issue doing it was a used CD.

I'm going to expose myself a little more, and say that I once converted a used VHS movie (the first animated Transformers movie) to digital, rather than just buying a digital version (which wouldn't have been available at the time). Did I feel bad about that? Not for a second. I owned the movie, I just converted it to a more useful format. Now my time is more valuable, so I might just rebuy it instead of going through a Rube Goldberg-like conversion process, but I could see why someone else might just think, "why not just download a version someone has already converted?"

[Kumabjorn]

Makes me kind of regret that I threw out my library, but I don't Think a lot of them are available in digital format.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

No one is talking about "entitlement". I meant to say that someone might feel morally okay in downloading a book they already own. If they can format shift a CD to an MP3, why not a book to an ebook?

Some (truly terrible individuals, I'm sure) would probably not have an issue with doing this format shifting with a used book, just like they might not have an issue doing it was a used CD.

Please, don't kid yourself. Some truly terrible individual would not have an issue with obtaining digital copies by format shifting out of thin air. Or put it differently: why bother to obtain the pbook in order to get the ebook for free.

Morally acceptable? But I am just format shifting. But I could do it myself, if I wanted to, and and and if I had the time to do that in.

And as you wish let us not talk about legal issues. That won't go anywhere.

[Rbneader]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Please, don't kid yourself. Some truly terrible individual would not have an issue with obtaining digital copies by format shifting out of thin air. Or put it differently: why bother to obtain the pbook in order to get the ebook for free.

Morally acceptable? But I am just format shifting. But I could do it myself, if I wanted to, and and and if I had the time to do that in.

And as you wish let us not talk about legal issues. That won't go anywhere.

Pretty sure NinjaLawyer is being sarcastic with the 'morally reprehensible' bits.

My take?
'Format shifting' is just a fancy new term for what has always been done.

Old clothes become potholders, quilts, old rags and rugs. Cardboard boxes become pet beds. Packing materials get used to wrap presents. Grocery store bags line trashcans. And stories in paper get turned into other formats, read aloud to friends, digitized, enacted by LARPers. This kind of use is utterly acceptable, an integral part of the concept of exchanging items of value (i.e. paying money for something), and companies trying to prevent it are grossly overreaching acceptable behavior.

TL;DR I consider commercial entities trying to limit my ownership rights morally reprehensible.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

My take?
'Format shifting' is just a fancy new term for what has always been done.

Old clothes become potholders, quilts, old rags and rugs. Cardboard boxes become pet beds. Packing materials get used to wrap presents. Grocery store bags line trashcans. And stories in paper get turned into other formats, read aloud to friends, digitized, enacted by LARPers. This kind of use is utterly acceptable, an integral part of the concept of exchanging items of value (i.e. paying money for something), and companies trying to prevent it are grossly overreaching acceptable behavior.

TL;DR I consider commercial entities trying to limit my ownership rights morally reprehensible.

There's a rather fundamental difference between using a cardboard box as a pet bed, and thinking that it's OK to download pirated books merely because you've bought the paper book.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Rbneader

Pretty sure NinjaLawyer is being sarcastic with the 'morally reprehensible' bits.

My take?
'Format shifting' is just a fancy new term for what has always been done.

Old clothes become potholders, quilts, old rags and rugs. Cardboard boxes become pet beds. Packing materials get used to wrap presents. Grocery store bags line trashcans. And stories in paper get turned into other formats, read aloud to friends, digitized, enacted by LARPers. This kind of use is utterly acceptable, an integral part of the concept of exchanging items of value (i.e. paying money for something), and companies trying to prevent it are grossly overreaching acceptable behavior.

TL;DR I consider commercial entities trying to limit my ownership rights morally reprehensible.

No, I am sure that NinjaLawyer knows exactly that illegally downloading pirated ebooks is not right even when the pbook is owned. He is trying to make it morally excusable by hiding under format shifting a pbook into a ebook. That mere act may be legal for you to do for own personal usage. Now the excuse is to download a format shifted ebook from the darknet is ok morally, because you could have done it yourself anyway with your own pbook

Your examples of format shifting is more like recycling and has not a lot to do with what is usually called format shifting here on MR.

Yes, I agree, ebooks is not a property to buy if you want ownership. Most copyrighted ebooks you don't own, but you purchased a non-transferable license to read. Is it a consumer friendly concept? Probably not, but it is what it is. You can chose to not buy and read ebooks if the current system is too prohibitive. Even buying drm free ebooks does not gurantee that you own them and can do with them as you please.

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's a rather fundamental difference between using a cardboard box as a pet bed, and thinking that it's OK to download pirated books merely because you've bought the paper book.

+1
Well and this - thank you for saying it a lot more efficient.

[Ninjalawyer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's a rather fundamental difference between using a cardboard box as a pet bed, and thinking that it's OK to download pirated books merely because you've bought the paper book.

So what is the moral distinction between converting CDs to MP3s versus books to ebooks? Would you be okay with someone scanning the book on their own, or paying a few dollars for a scanning service to do it? Now I'm the one having trouble following the logic.

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

No, I am sure that NinjaLawyer knows exactly that illegally downloading pirated ebooks is not right even when the pbook is owned. He is trying to make it morally excusable by hiding under format shifting a pbook into a ebook. That mere act may be legal for you to do for own personal usage. Now the excuse is to download a format shifted ebook from the darknet is ok morally, because you could have done it yourself anyway with your own pbook...

Actually, I'm not trying to "make it morally excusable".

I think if you read my post more carefully, you'd see that I merely pointed out that some may not have an issue with downloading an electronic version of a book that they own physically, in the same way they might not have any issue downloading MP3s of songs they have on CD, converting VHS to digital or using their PVR to record from cable to watch later. That's just an observation, not a particular value judgement with respect to converting pbooks to ebooks.

In the context of this topic, I then pointed out that that thinking might cause an issue for the service we're supposedly discussing.

For my own understanding though, what makes scanning a physical book for your own use morally okay in your system (I'm assuming that, so feel free to correct me), but downloading an ebook that someone else has scanned (where you own the physical book) not okay? Does going through more steps to get the ebook convert the whole matter from wrong to okay?

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

Actually, I'm not trying to "make it morally excusable".

You are saying you understand how others justify it. And you admitted doing it or not having a problem doing it yourself.

For my own understanding though, what makes scanning a physical book for your own use morally okay in your system (I'm assuming that, so feel free to correct me), but downloading an ebook that someone else has scanned (where you own the physical book) not okay? Does going through more steps to get the ebook convert the whole matter from wrong to okay?

If it is legally not wrong, than there is nothing wrong morally either for your own use if you do the scanning yourself or use a scanning service.

As for somebody else scanning it and you download: those times are long gone. Books for download are not format shifted pbooks anymore, but pirated ebooks. Removing drm from an ebook is impossible if you only got the pbook to begin with. Does not even matter if removing drm is legal or not in your jurisdiction, as soon as you distribute that book it becomes illegal just by distributing. Is it then morally ok to support an illegal upload that you could not do yourself?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Ninjalawyer

For my own understanding though, what makes scanning a physical book for your own use morally okay in your system (I'm assuming that, so feel free to correct me), but downloading an ebook that someone else has scanned (where you own the physical book) not okay? Does going through more steps to get the ebook convert the whole matter from wrong to okay?

A commercial ebook (which virtually all pirated books are these days) is a very different product to a self-scanned book. The commercial ebook is not merely "format shifting" from the printed book, whereas an MP3 file ripped from a CD could reasonably be said to be such.