Books on Board asking for my country of residence?

[vsalvaggio]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

that's a good point, but i think the key concept there is that these problems "are a consequence of the historical set up in the industry." the whole point is that the industry is trying to maintain a way of functioning which is no longer relevant due to the fundamental changes brought about by technological advances.

certainly, it makes sense to negotiate rights based on territory when we are talking about physical objects which will be distributed via chains of physical stores. but when the merchandise is dematerialised and is sold via something called the "world-wide web" (it's right there in the name !!), it might be time to rethink those old limitations.

I agree with zelda wholeheartedly. Just because that's how it's always been done, doesn't mean it makes sense for the internet age. Trying to restrict internet sales by region is either doomed to fall as being too difficult or will drive customers away.

(Thanks to Kurt for the "official" response!)

[jljones]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

but my worry is that they might start limiting access to some ebooks for some countries

That's what Mobipocket use it for, but you can change it. Not that anyone here would do that just to buy a book.

[Over]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

if UK e-tailers don't want to lose sales to other online booksellers, perhaps they should consider a more realistic pricing policy.

I agree with your whole post, but I must recognise that different VAT rates and currency exchange rates could make the business unfair for european sellers.

I don't think currency exchange should be considered, I think it's highly unfair for the UK customer to pay, for example 9,99£ for an ebook and the american pay 9,99€. That's plain wrong but it's very common. That's a way to rip off the customer.

Another point, would be translation. I surely wouldn't be confident in buying the rights for a book and pay for a translation if I knew everyone in my country had easy access to the english book. Sure, those people who don't know english would still wait for my edition, but many other wouldn't wait. On the other side, I don't think it's right to limit the customers' options.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Over

I agree with your whole post, but I must recognise that different VAT rates and currency exchange rates could make the business unfair for european sellers.

I don't think currency exchange should be considered, I think it's highly unfair for the UK customer to pay, for example 9,99£ for an ebook and the american pay 9,99€. That's plain wrong but it's very common. That's a way to rip off the customer.

Another point, would be translation. I surely wouldn't be confident in buying the rights for a book and pay for a translation if I knew everyone in my country had easy access to the english book. Sure, those people who don't know english would still wait for my edition, but many other wouldn't wait. On the other side, I don't think it's right to limit the customers' options.

without taking into consideration the different VAT rates (which is itself a huge bone of contention in France : paper books have a special VAT rate of 5.5%, however ebooks are considered "computer software" or some such nonsense and are therefore taxed at the full rate of 19.6%), nor the exchange rates, i've heard many complaints of UK etailers practicing outrageous prices for ebooks, when the same books can often be got from a US-based bookseller for significantly less. in France, where ebooks are really just starting to be available on a more mainstream level, the main retailer (the fnac) who recently started to sell the sony 505, also offers ebooks ; their pricing policy so far seems to be a reduction of only 5% from the paper book price. and their selection is limited, since i believe they've made a deal with hachette so many books which do exist as ebooks are not available there. for instance, everyone's favorite example of L'élégance du hérisson : the paper book costs 19€ at the fnac. it is available as an ebook (although not at the fnac), for 19€. nobody is willing to pay this. and a reduction of 5% for an ebook, which costs the publisher nothing for ink, paper, printing, shipping, stockage, shipping back unsold copies for destruction (in other words, their cost is reduced by far more than 5% compared to the paper edition).... no, i'm sorry, that is not reasonable.

there are many other examples of books which are available for significantly lower prices from a US-based etailer than from a french or UK one. it's completely incoherent and *this* is why the UK / french etailers will lose business. this is why i say, if they want to defend their territory, fine ! i've been waiting and waiting for french ebooks !! but come on ! i don't even want to pay 19€ for a paper book (i wait for the cheaper pocket edition, or get it at the library) ; what have they been smoking to think that's a reasonable price for an ebook ??? we know an ebook costs dramatically less to produce and distribute than a paper book, we're not idiots : prices like this make us feel that the publishers are bandits trying to take us for all they can before something obliges them to come back to reality. if the élégance du hérisson were priced around 5 or even 6€ (the pocket edition will probably cost between 5 and 8€...), i would buy it without hesitating. but 19€ ??? please, don't take me for an idiot. i'll get it at the library instead and the publisher won't get ANY money from me. now how is that in their best interest ?

as for the translation... i don't know how it is in other countries, but most of my friends don't speak english well enough to read in english, and even those that do mostly prefer to read in french as it's more comfortable for them. a few of my friends read in english, either because they prefer to read the original version, or to practice their english and not forget it. i feel quite confident in affirming they are a very small minority of readers. so that is not a significant threat to publishers. the real threat is a customer base who feels the publishers are playing a game of extortion, and we are the pigeons.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by blunty

This discrepancy in territorial rights does not sit well with the global internet market but are a consequence of the historical set up in the industry. Any publisher, agent and author must have the ability to sell only to the market they have the rights for. Until every publisher is sold worldwide rights for every book, for every format as well then DRM and territorial restrictions will be with us. And that set up will hurt the smaller non US publishers much more than the Harper Collins and Penguins.

I don't see worldwide rights happening in any near term time frame. Having the world wide rights is one thing. Actually being able to sell worldwide is quite another.

As you point out, intellectual property rights come into play. An agent selling a book on behalf of an author to a US publisher will be selling US rights, but foreign sales will be a separate matter, negotiated separately. (And having a US title also see things like French and German editions can mean a nice boost in an author's income from a book.)

Another complicating factor will be translations, which will have yet another layer of rights to factor in, as someone will have to do the translation and will have the rights to that part of the work.

And how enthusiastic will a foreign publisher who purchased rights to offer a book in their market be about a competing ebook version from a publisher elsewhere? Not very.

I'm afraid we are going to be stuck with stuff like this for quite some time. The simplest solution I can see is the ability to offer an ebook anywhere, with the publisher who owns the rights for a particular territory getting a cut of sales in that territory, even if they aren't technically the publisher of that electronic edition. But that's "simple" only in concept. Implementation would be a neat trick indeed.
______
Dennis

[ficbot]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And how enthusiastic will a foreign publisher who purchased rights to offer a book in their market be about a competing ebook version from a publisher elsewhere? Not very.
Dennis

Here's another question: how enthusiastic will publishers be to find out that they have lost actual sales because customers who wanted to buy the book were unable to? I recently emailed an author whose books were previously available in eReader and were now only in mobipocket, and I directly told her she lost a sale as I would have bought the book if it was in eReader as I was accustomed to. She was, I assure you, very concerned

I think we are seeing a shift toward publishing being les about what the publishers want and more about what the customers want, just as we did with the music industry beginning to capitulate on DRM. Honestly, there is so much competition for people's entertainment dollar these days that publishers should be happy to get sales any way they can.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Here's another question: how enthusiastic will publishers be to find out that they have lost actual sales because customers who wanted to buy the book were unable to? I recently emailed an author whose books were previously available in eReader and were now only in mobipocket, and I directly told her she lost a sale as I would have bought the book if it was in eReader as I was accustomed to. She was, I assure you, very concerned

I think we are seeing a shift toward publishing being les about what the publishers want and more about what the customers want, just as we did with the music industry beginning to capitulate on DRM. Honestly, there is so much competition for people's entertainment dollar these days that publishers should be happy to get sales any way they can.

yes, those are excellent points, and more or less what i think as well. the copy of l'élégance du hérisson that i will not buy because it's NINETEEN bloody euros for the ebook is a lost sale, since i would *definitely* buy it at a lower price. who knows how many others there are in my situation, and how many other books i won't buy in future because of the ridiculous price ? and every book i want to buy through BoB or fictionwise and whose sale to me is suddenly refused because i don't live in the US, is also quite clearly a lost sale.

publishers claim to be so terrified of losing sales to illicit copy sharing, but they're certainly doing their very best to make legitimate sales as difficult as possible (and sometimes impossible). what exactly do they think all those frustrated would-be customers are going to do ? some of them will just skip it, of course. some will get the book from the library, or borrow it from a friend, or buy a paper copy used... and some of them will download a copy from a p2p network somewhere. and probably some of *them* will even feel somewhat justified in doing so ; after all, they *would* have paid, if the publishers had only allowed them to...

i'm not trying to justify copyright infringement or unauthorised copying, but i think realistically this sort of trend will ultimately encourage it, and it will be publishers' own fault.

[ficbot]

It's even worse because they make no effort to hide from you that fact that, but for your geographic location, they would happily take your money. It's right there. You can see it. And then they tell you you can't have it---at COST to you. It's not like it's free and they are doing you some grand favour! Same with geo-locking internet sites like Hulu or parts of YouTube. If you have not yet worked out the world-wide rights, don't put it on the world freaking wide web! Geez! I have no problems using an IP scrambler in cases like that to access content that they are waving right in front of my face and then arbitrarily not letting me see.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by ficbot

It's even worse because they make no effort to hide from you that fact that, but for your geographic location, they would happily take your money. It's right there. You can see it. And then they tell you you can't have it---at COST to you. It's not like it's free and they are doing you some grand favour! Same with geo-locking internet sites like Hulu or parts of YouTube. If you have not yet worked out the world-wide rights, don't put it on the world freaking wide web! Geez! I have no problems using an IP scrambler in cases like that to access content that they are waving right in front of my face and then arbitrarily not letting me see.

exactly !!!!! criminy !!!!

i think the problem is we need to completely get over conceptions of rights limited by such arbitrary variables as geographical borders. those have very little (if any) meaning in today's technological environment. WORLD-WIDE web ! as i said before, it's right there in the name !!!

[ficbot]

Oh, but zelda_pinwheel, we are obviously only thinking this way because there are things about the publishing business which we plebians clearly don't understand

Well you know what, I say the business world needs to evolve to meet its customer's needs if it wants to survive, and adapting to new technology and the changes it brings is part of that. Think of all the manufacturers of hand-crack washing machines, for example, who had to adapt to the electrical age. Did they set up systems for them to continue to make hand-crack washing machines? No. Did they bail them out when people stopped buying hand-crank washing machines? No. If they were smart, they learned how to make electric washing machines and they sold those instead.

When you had to physically ship boxes of actual books to people, geographical borders WERE a consideration because it would cost more to mail you, in France, my physical box from here, in Canada. But with e-books, that is not so much an issue. In fact, they are saving a ton of money because this barrier is not there. They can reach MORE people. They can sell MORE books. Why would someone not see the value in that? Most of the time, you don't even know you can't buy it until after you have already read the blurb and clicked the 'buy now' button---so this means that what they are doing is getting people to the virtual point of SHOWING UP AT THE CASH REGISTER WITH THE BOOK IN ONE HAND AND A WAD OF BILLS IN THE OTHER and then saying 'no, not from YOU!' How is that even a little bit smart, especially in an age where books have so much competition already?

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Oh, but zelda_pinwheel, we are obviously only thinking this way because there are things about the publishing business which we plebians clearly don't understand

yes, that must be it.

Well you know what, I say the business world needs to evolve to meet its customer's needs if it wants to survive, and adapting to new technology and the changes it brings is part of that. Think of all the manufacturers of hand-crack washing machines, for example, who had to adapt to the electrical age. Did they set up systems for them to continue to make hand-crack washing machines? No. Did they bail them out when people stopped buying hand-crank washing machines? No. If they were smart, they learned how to make electric washing machines and they sold those instead.

but publishers have already demonstrated that they can't learn from other industries who have been along this road before them ; otherwise, they would be avoiding all the costly and ultimately futile mistakes the music industry made only a few years earlier, when music first began to be dematerialised, instead of making EXACTLY THE SAME ONES now. no need to go as far back as the hand-crank washing machine.

When you had to physically ship boxes of actual books to people, geographical borders WERE a consideration because it would cost more to mail you, in France, my physical box from here, in Canada. But with e-books, that is not so much an issue. In fact, they are saving a ton of money because this barrier is not there. They can reach MORE people. They can sell MORE books. Why would someone not see the value in that? Most of the time, you don't even know you can't buy it until after you have already read the blurb and clicked the 'buy now' button---so this means that what they are doing is getting people to the virtual point of SHOWING UP AT THE CASH REGISTER WITH THE BOOK IN ONE HAND AND A WAD OF BILLS IN THE OTHER and then saying 'no, not from YOU!' How is that even a little bit smart, especially in an age where books have so much competition already?

you are preaching to the choir here, ficbot. i think exactly like you.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Oh, but zelda_pinwheel, we are obviously only thinking this way because there are things about the publishing business which we plebians clearly don't understand

Well you know what, I say the business world needs to evolve to meet its customer's needs if it wants to survive, and adapting to new technology and the changes it brings is part of that. Think of all the manufacturers of hand-crack washing machines, for example, who had to adapt to the electrical age. Did they set up systems for them to continue to make hand-crack washing machines? No. Did they bail them out when people stopped buying hand-crank washing machines? No. If they were smart, they learned how to make electric washing machines and they sold those instead.

When you had to physically ship boxes of actual books to people, geographical borders WERE a consideration because it would cost more to mail you, in France, my physical box from here, in Canada. But with e-books, that is not so much an issue. In fact, they are saving a ton of money because this barrier is not there. They can reach MORE people. They can sell MORE books. Why would someone not see the value in that? Most of the time, you don't even know you can't buy it until after you have already read the blurb and clicked the 'buy now' button---so this means that what they are doing is getting people to the virtual point of SHOWING UP AT THE CASH REGISTER WITH THE BOOK IN ONE HAND AND A WAD OF BILLS IN THE OTHER and then saying 'no, not from YOU!' How is that even a little bit smart, especially in an age where books have so much competition already?

It's not smart.

I'd go so far as to call it ridiculous: especially since if a person from any country showed up in a physical store they can buy the book regardless of whether the publisher has the rights for their country or not.

However.

If someone pushes the matter they could end up facing a lawsuit over it and no company wants that.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

It's not smart.

I'd go so far as to call it ridiculous: especially since if a person from any country showed up in a physical store they can buy the book regardless of whether the publisher has the rights for their country or not.

However.

If someone pushes the matter they could end up facing a lawsuit over it and no company wants that.

i'd go even farther : as i've said before, i can buy a paper book on amazon, online, and they will ship it to me in france. i don't even hae to go over there and get it myself in person. i just have to agree to pay a higher shipping fee.

that makes restricting ebooks even MORE ridiculous (as if it weren't already the epitome of ridicule).

[zelda_pinwheel]

Kurt, if you're still following this thread, feel free to show my posts to whatever publishers are making this demand, to let them know just how annoyed it makes their customers. let them know that they're losing sales as a result of this outdated, absurd policy, and possibly A LOT of sales. if they won't listen to reason, perhaps they'll be moved by financial arguments.

[blunty]

Authors and their agents could be shown it as well, as they are the ones often negotiating separate territorial contracts.
I do think the book industry is listening and not just blindly following the music business' mistakes. Although both industries are using the web and downloading they are quite different. Although many who actually care enough to write to forums are so anti DRM, many others will see the business need to protect intellectual property from a free for all where no one can earn a living out of writing because the readers expect it all for free.