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Old 07-16-2014, 01:24 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by eschwartz View Post
I would use Genesis.html, Exodus.html, Leviticus.html, Numbers.html, Deuteronomy.html -- this will automatically provide forced pagebreaks.

Have you gotten the titles working? If not, I could try offering some suggestions.
Yes, I got the titles working

But there is a problem, I think: The Titles are H1.
However, they are not the highest in the Hierarchy.
That will be "Old Testament" and "New Testament" although I haven't added that yet. I'll do that at the end.

So I am thinking now that when everything is finished, I'll have to replace H1 to H2, H2 to H3 etc, so that I can use H1 for Old and New Testaments.
Does that make sense, or am I misunderstanding?


The reason I want to get the headers right, is because I'm going to need a TOC with clickable items. Otherwise navigation is impossible.

I don't know how to do it, so it's the final challenge after the cutting and pasting is done.


There was some funny formatting in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, but after that it didn't take long.

Right now I am stuck at Psalms because of the unusual format, it's causing troules.



I'm noticing minor formatting error from the publisher, actually!

Last edited by martienne; 07-16-2014 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 01:50 AM   #32
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Changing the header tags is easy. Just use a regex:

search:
Code:
(?=</?h)#(?=( [^>]+)?>)
replace:
Code:
#
And change "#" to 1-2|2-3|3-4 pairs to target each.

Make sure you check afterward to override the look with appropriate CSS. The default look for each is slightly different.

You could also hand edit the ToC. One of the reasons I would rather use calibre IMHO -- it has an editor, but you were trying conversion which is why it changed stuff. I like the calibre ToC editor better.

The problem with editing the ToC is that the book itself is not semantically structured -- you overrode the header semantics -- so auto tools like ToC generators will require more manual work if you ever redo the ToC. But if you just care about results, not code elegance, you could always do it the easy way.

Last edited by eschwartz; 07-16-2014 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 07-16-2014, 08:54 AM   #33
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Ok! I did Genesis - Book of Job as one HTML for the time being, because that's how far I got to. But Dreamweaver was getting rather sluggish and the CPU was high.

The book of Psalms is really long and needs some special formatting so I am doing that in a new HTML. Once I am done with Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon, the rest will just slide in: it's just cut & paste. Those four are more complex due to being "poetry books" where most of the text is poetry/verses and the formatting is different.

I think I'll be able to fit Psalms - Malachi (last book in the old testament) in one HTML.
All of the New Testament fits into one HTML, I think - it's not that long.

This bible edition also includes the so called "Apocrypha" which is not normally in Swedish bibles since Luther rejected them... No idea why they suddenly made a comeback. I only just discovered that, and I'll put it in a separate book, assuming they are subsequent to each other. I don't quite understand where they are in the order of the bible, but google can probably tell me.

So I will end up with 4 HTML files in total, of varying length.

After that, I will need to:

1 - Merge them into one epub
2 - Solve the problem with the headers
3 - Add a page to announce the start of the Old and New Testaments respectively.
4 - Add a TOC.
5 - Add some kind of authentic looking first page with ISBN, publisher and relevant metadata.
6 - Add a cover.

Is that in the right order?

I get what you are saying with the regex (had to google it!) but it looks a bit daunting!

I'll take one step at a time though, and I might as well do any replacement at the end, of the whole job, after doing a backup! I can see how it could completely mess things up, unless you do it completely right, and I didn't quite follow the exact process....

Last edited by martienne; 07-16-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 07-19-2014, 06:11 AM   #34
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Being a member of the church of Sweden and paying taxes doesn't give you any right to violate the restrictive licensing of this Bible text. It is completely irrelevant if the text is sold or not, you have to wait for 70 years after the death of the authors or so before it gets into Public Domain. However, you might be allowed to create an e-book for your own personal use (if there is a fair-use concept in Swedish law, German law has the “Privatkopie”), or the license has an exception for it explicitely. If the situation is this worse with Swedish Bible translations, you should immediately start a freely licensed (GNU AGPL3 or CC BY-SA) new translation just as the German “Offene Bibel”. The other question is what Jesus would say to violate the law if there are other (well, more labourful) ways to create and use alternatives. Regardless of your answer to your question, some operations like christian websites or missions can't affort to being sued by a Bible Society or publishing house for copyright infringement, so they're either getting a quite useless permission from the publisher which only permits them to use the text, not their readers, or they can't use a modern Bible text on their website at all. In any case, see “The Christian Commons” by Tim Jore of Distant Shores Media, where I would slightly disagree here and there (I believe publishing a Bible text under a restrictive license is both highly unethical and unbiblical), but it's a great introduction to the topic. Pasting your HTML to Pastebin is most likely a copyright violation on your behalf, since you're doing unauthorized distribution here. Same goes for PeterT's EPUB hosted as an attachment to his post. Why do you need an “authentic looking” first page with ISBN, publisher and relevant metadata for your own, personal use?

You can change the HTML by automated XML processing, with XSLT for instance.

I work on a project which is dedicated to develop freely licensed tools to process Bible texts (in German language, we work on freely licensed Bible texts and those in Public Domain). EPUB, HTML and PDF generation are supported (depending on the quality of your source file), see freie-bibel.de (project description) and the attempt to internationalize the software development under free-scriptures.org. However, I myself won't do any work on restrictively licensed Bible texts, instead, I want to see them abolished completely. But I can't keep you from using those tools, which is part of your digital freedom as a user of computers. Please consider to join the free efforts in one way or another, obviously a freely licensed modern Swedish Bible translation would be a high priority task, which would have saved your time now if it would already exist, because everybody would be allowed to produce and distribute EPUBs from it.

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Old 07-19-2014, 03:42 PM   #35
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Cool projects skreutzer! I was going to check out your Vimeo but I think it's broken?

The freiebibel project sounds interesting. Offene bibel was really nice! 100% agree!
I'm going to return there and try to read it properly, later.

I totally support that kind of effort.
If you mean to say that there is something wrong about copyrighting the bible, I agree.

Just to assure you that no copyright crime is being committed: by Swedish law, anybody can request a copy of official state documentation. The Bible is proposition
SOU 2000:100, as per http://www.jure.se/ns/default.asp?ur....asp?tuid=6338
If I was in Stockholm I'd consider popping by the national library and request a copy. However, I am in London at the moment.

in general; fine, for a physical book they may need to charge something as there is effort involved in producing the book and selling it. But an electronic copy - why? No. The Bibel 2000 translators got paid a salary while they worked on the project. Nobody is owed anything.

I think it's unbiblical to restrict access to the Bible. So did Luther, so I am not going to apologise for this viewpoint. Just like Luther, I also believe the bible should be available in people's local language and not so ancient grammar/spelling/vocabulary that people struggle to understand the text.

Of course, an open source translation is better than my current approach BUT I don't know Ancient Greek or Hebrew! I am not trained in theology... So what can I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skreutzer View Post
you have to wait for 70 years after the death of the authors
In the case of the Bible, the last authors to contribute died in the first century and they sacificed their lives to spread the message.
I don't plan to be part of standing in the way for that effort.
[-sorry I had to....]

Actually there is a project in Sweden which you might want to be aware of?

There are some scholars working on a full modernization of the Karl XII version because it was based on Textus Receptus - they reject the later manuscripts. It's called Reformationsbibeln. http://www.bibel.se/bibeln/

They are providing it for free and they did all the New Testament + the books of Moses. It's available to download for free from the site, as PDF.

They seem really nice and enthusiastic.

The Swedish 1917 bible and the Karl XII bible are obviously without copyright, so they ought to be added to these online libraries, I'll submit them later. But like I said, it's a pain in the neck for a normal modern person to read read them. The grammar sounds like German, lol... too complicated!

As for the page at the front of the book, that's in case somebody borrows my personal copy that I am making so they have a professional experience.
Also, if I am putting in all this effort I might as well do a proper job!

Status of my project:
I discovered that there were some errors (about 100 sentences missing at various places in the online version) so I had to manually copy them from another bible version and modernise the grammar. It took quite a long time.
Now I am ready to do the final polishes and merging as all the text is in place!

Last edited by martienne; 07-19-2014 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:51 AM   #36
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I sometimes observe that the Vimeo player doesn't play the video in some browsers, however, Vimeo offers video download (if the author permits). Anyway, I mirror them on YouTube. But at least you didn't discover a broken Vimeo link, did you?

Interesting, German law has a exception for documents produced by some bureaus too, but hasn't issued any Bible translation as far as I know. So you and the publisher website where you've obtained the text from seem to be in a pretty lucky situation ;-)

Copyright and prices are a completely separate, unrelated topic (except they get artificially connected together in some kind of old-fashioned, pre-digital "business model" of restriction to access). There are works which are gratis, but restrictively licensed, and there are freely licensed works one has to pay for. For physical copies, still one deserves some or all necessary freedoms to the contents of it (depending of the type of work), but one cannot expect gratis physical books, because making and distributing them, in opposition to digital goods, is a costly effort that has to be compensated one way or another.

The bible is meant to be distributed and read. Luther and others translated the text into the language of the people, the Reformation was strongly supported by book printing technology. Nowadays there's even better technology, but inadequate copyright law keeps Christians from their very foundational texts they need to work with.

I too don't know the biblical languages, but I know programming, so I support the projects in my language with technical assistance. Usually there are always some tasks for any given person, be it proofreading, promotion, organization, whatever. From your question I guess Sweden doesn't have such a project, but maybe doesn't need one because of Bible 2000, right?

That's right, but every translation establishes new copyright protection. Further, even the scientific versions of the ancient text are presented in a way which establishes new copyright protection, and you can't simply go to a museum, archive or library in order to look up the handwritten manuscripts yourself. Digital versions of them are rare, and even sometimes embedded into some "special" software which establishes new copyright for the whole presentation.

Quote:
In the case of the Bible, the last authors to contribute died in the first century and they sacificed their lives to spread the message.
As of the Reformationsbibeln and similar projects, I'm quite unsure about what branch of preservation can be considered the "more correct", since that's a fairly complex topic. I do care much more about the question, if their text is freely licensed, because if it would be (or if at least one translation is for every language), other versions could be based upon it by modifying it (derivative work), so serious study can take place in all kinds of collaborative study tools, annotations or comparison tables, made accessible to everyone. Unfortunately they chose restrictive licensing, which is inacceptable because it prevents the spread of the text over commercial distribution channels or it prevents situations where somebody can't produce/distribute copies except with compensation of a buyer, namely physical books in large quantities.

Digitalizing and proofreading old bible translations is time-consuming work, but as I don't know the ancient languages, that's what I do ;-) At least the language hasn't changed that much or could be updated once the text is available in digital form. Still, an authentic version should be made and not an updated one right away, so that the authentic one can be a reliable source for other projects as well and will allow comparisons to other bible translations of its time.

If the Swedish Bible 2000 isn't copyright protected and you put effort into it creating an EPUB, why don't you put it up to some server? In general, a free Christian e-book library hopefully will develop over time (many existing individuals who have online material repositories refuse that), or at least general purpose e-book hosters could be considered.

Be careful, the idea of the website you've obtained the Bible 2000 text from might be to make some changes to the original text from the state project in order to establish new copyright protection.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:34 PM   #37
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Being a member of the church of Sweden and paying taxes doesn't give you any right to violate the restrictive licensing of this Bible text. It is completely irrelevant if the text is sold or not, you have to wait for 70 years after the death of the authors or so before it gets into Public Domain.
Yes. That's exactly right. Any other discussion as to reasons, purposes, waiting times, etc., is simply rationalization.

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Old 07-20-2014, 07:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
If the Swedish Bible 2000 isn't copyright protected and you put effort into it creating an EPUB, why don't you put it up to some server? In general, a free Christian e-book library hopefully will develop over time (many existing individuals who have online material repositories refuse that), or at least general purpose e-book hosters could be considered.

Be careful, the idea of the website you've obtained the Bible 2000 text from might be to make some changes to the original text from the state project in order to establish new copyright protection.
As I have stated earlier in this tread, the Bible 2000 is ©, but the text is free for smaller citations and in it's entirety for personal use. The authors may have been dead for about 2000 years, but translators have rights as well (same death + 70 years as authors here in Denmark and Sweden). And while any one can grab their own copy as needed, distributing that copy to friends and neighbours is a c opyright infringement. Any personal feelings, taxpaying and citizenship, as well as the sayings of long dead persons is futile and have nothing to do with the laws of the human society as of today.

Ideally the Bible (and all the other great basic texts of humanity like the Quran, Rig Veda and you name it) should be free, and so they are - if you kan read them in their original languages.

Regards,

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Old 07-21-2014, 10:23 AM   #39
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All this talk about copyright is really off-putting and tiresome. Enough already! Point taken.

Frankly, somebody who was 100% adhering and sympathetic to copyright would be a quite the fool to waste their time transferring formats like what we are discussing here, when Amazon and similar vendors provide a seamless experience and an adequate reading experience with their paid services and locked devices/formats - perfect for the lovers of copyright! It doesn't quite add up to me. Seriously, give it a break with the copyright lecturing!

The book I was interested in, wasn't available in ebook format, and I made that completely clear, plus explained the circumstances surrounding the situation. Take it or leave it.


Arrgh!
--------------------------------

Anyway, my rip is complete and I am very pleased with it. I think it beats the formatting and look of most retail ebooks book I've seen.

I've learnt a lot about how to format ebooks and I really appreciate all the support I received in the forum.

I ended up with 6 HTML files for the Bible texts, 1 TOC, 1 metadata page and 1 cover page which I compiled to epub.

It looks beautiful on my reader.

.

Last edited by martienne; 07-21-2014 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:51 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martienne View Post
All this talk about copyright is really off-putting and tiresome.
Some of us are actually trying to make a living from our "art" - I'm a publisher and translator, Hitch makes ebooks for selfpublishers and other publishing firms - for us it's an important issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martienne View Post
Frankly, somebody who was 100% adhering and sympathetic to copyright would be a quite the fool to waste their time transferring formats like what we are discussing here, when Amazon and similar vendors provide a seamless experience and an adequate reading experience with their paid services and locked devices/formats - perfect for the lovers of copyright!
Amazon and Kindle are not that big here in Denmark. Besides most publishers here use "social DRM", relying on the honesty of our customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martienne View Post
It looks beautiful on my reader.
Nice

(And maybe you should alter the russian in your forum name - it might raise suspicions as to your intentions for those of us able to read it

Regards,

Kim

Last edited by elibrarian; 07-21-2014 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martienne View Post
All this talk about copyright is really off-putting and tiresome. Enough already! Point taken.

Frankly, somebody who was 100% adhering and sympathetic to copyright would be a quite the fool to waste their time transferring formats like what we are discussing here, when Amazon and similar vendors provide a seamless experience and an adequate reading experience with their paid services and locked devices/formats - perfect for the lovers of copyright! It doesn't quite add up to me. Seriously, give it a break with the copyright lecturing!

The book I was interested in, wasn't available in ebook format, and I made that completely clear, plus explained the circumstances surrounding the situation. Take it or leave it.


Arrgh!
--------------------------------
You must forgive us -- threads here on MobileRead often go off-tangent as members start chatting about anything even slightly related. People just set up their soapboxes anywhere, you know?

But nobody means to target you, I am sure. They are just advocating in general.

Quote:
Anyway, my rip is complete and I am very pleased with it. I think it beats the formatting and look of most retail ebooks book I've seen.

I've learnt a lot about how to format ebooks and I really appreciate all the support I received in the forum.

I ended up with 6 HTML files for the Bible texts, 1 TOC, 1 metadata page and 1 cover page which I compiled to epub.

It looks beautiful on my reader.

.
Good to hear. Enjoy!
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Old 07-23-2014, 08:07 PM   #42
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@elibrarian:

Copyright law usually has some exceptions, for example for works which are issued by a bureau of the state. martienne said that this is the case for the Swedish Bible 2000, so even distribution would be legal for him and other Swedish citizens, maybe even internationally.

@martienne:

Copyright is very important, because it can make all efforts void regardless of the technical ability to transform and/or use it. Therefore, everyone who deals with any text is or should be quite concerned about licensing, and if we ask, it is to determine if the Swedish Bible 2000 can be used freely by everyone or not. Furthermore, if it couldn't, you would cause yourself and potentially others some serious trouble by ignoring such issues. But as you described, it seems that in this case everything is fine, and at least for me that's a valuable information, that the Swedish language has a bible text that can be used freely, as other languages have not.

@elibrarian:

I don't think that copyright is of any good for making a living from one's art, because this goes to the expense and harm of both the reader and society as a whole by the abuse of copyright for restrictive licensing. It's way better to make a living from making art, not from artificially restricting access to the art that is produced, especially in our digital times.
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Old 07-24-2014, 05:42 AM   #43
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Copyright law usually has some exceptions, for example for works which are issued by a bureau of the state. martienne said that this is the case for the Swedish Bible 2000, so even distribution would be legal for him and other Swedish citizens, maybe even internationally.
It doesn't seem something like that applies to this case. The Copyright page states some of the fees to pay, I doubt anyone would be allowed to distribute it for free. Of course, there's always the possibility that the information in that page be misleading and distribution be allowed anyway, but I wouldn't rely on that.

The right approach would be to write to the address provided and ask.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:14 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Jellby View Post
It doesn't seem something like that applies to this case. The Copyright page states some of the fees to pay, I doubt anyone would be allowed to distribute it for free. Of course, there's always the possibility that the information in that page be misleading and distribution be allowed anyway, but I wouldn't rely on that.

The right approach would be to write to the address provided and ask.

Jellby, you probably don't know this if you didn't go to school in Sweden, but according to Offentlighetsprincipen you can go to Riksdagsarkivet or similar institution and request a copy of SOU 2000:100 which is a State deposition, but also happens to be the exact text for Bible 2000. You can also request to have it sent to your local library or pay the printing cost for your personal copy sent to you. Nowadays there is probably an electronic service too. SOU = Statens Offentliga Utredningar = State Public Depositions.

This applies to all citizens as far as I know. The translation was funded by mandatory tax payments to the Church of Sweden. Anyone born in Sweden before ca 1995 (I don't know the exact year) was automatically added as a member of the church and pays taxes to them unless they request to exit the church, which very few people do did. My Jewish cousins have never bothered exiting. This translation belongs to the people, who paid for it with tax money.

It's a unique situation due to the fact that before immigration virtually everyone was Lutheran and the assumption was that they'd want to be members of the Church. This was cancelled in the 1990s when moslem immigrants understandably objected.
Additionally, Offentlighetsprincipen is also more or less unique for Sweden.

There is nothing illegal about me as a citizen having a personal copy of any state documentation, certainly including SOU 2000:100.
Quite the opposite, the constitution explicitly supports it. It's my right as a citizen! The fact that I choose to format the text a bit, is my personal business.


When I did a law course in the late 1990s, the New Testament text for Bibel 2000 was available already, in this translation, and I remember distinctly the lecturer giving it as an example of how you could use the principle to get hold of the Bible for free - Just as an entertaining and memorable example of how this principle works in practice.
I even ran across it in the university library law Juridik (law) section complete with state emblem and deposition number. It was rather hilarious to see the bible like that, but that's what you get with a state church (those days are now over). If I had wanted, I could have requested a photocopy and put it in a binder. Et voila - my very own free bible. This was before everything was made available electronically.

This is a very boring subject and I frankly don't care what people think of it. I've got my personal Bible copy and I am certain I have broken no law.

You can write to them and ask if this troubles you, but I know I've got my ducks in a row so certainly won't bother. And as you well know if you live in Sweden, you won't get a response until they are back from their hols in early to mid August! Industrisemestern... Personally I am not bothered and those who want to continue discussing the legality of copying Bibel 2000 for Swedish citizens might want to start a separate thread. Don't count on my participation.

Just to illustrate how Offentlighetsprincipen works;
There was a very entertaining story late 1990s about how an angry Greek ex member of Scientology submitted the Scientology holiest and secret doctrine to the State in Sweden, as some kind of query. As a result, any citizen of Sweden was entitled to look at it and get a copy. And they did! The Scientology church was furious but couldn't initially do anything, since access to any state documentation is guaranteed by the Swedish constitution.

Eventually the USA interfered on behalf of Scientology, claiming copyright infringement by the Swedish state, and forced Sweden to restrict access to the documents by making them state secrets. We hear and obey! Obviously the documents of Scientology has nothing to do with state security in Sweden, but I believe trade sanctions were a distinct risk. However before the US managed to bully Sweden into submission, enough people had read about Xenu and magical volcanoes on the Canary Islands - so their secrets were already out. This may have been insensitive towards the Scientology church but the man felt that he had been scammed of large sums of money, he knew he was far from alone, and this was a legal venue open for him to get his revenge before the internet was commonly available.

Last edited by martienne; 07-24-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 07-25-2014, 05:45 AM   #45
Jellby
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Originally Posted by martienne View Post
you can go to Riksdagsarkivet or similar institution and request a copy of SOU 2000:100 which is a State deposition, but also happens to be the exact text for Bible 2000.
You can get the text, that doesn't mean you have the right to distribute it. Of course I don't know the details. My point is that you cannot apply one country's laws to another (or logic to any country's laws).

Quote:
This translation belongs to the people, who paid for it with tax money.
I don't know how it is in Sweden, but you cannot apply this principle to most things. First example: the authoritative dictionary of the Spanish language is paid by taxes, yet taxpayers do not get it for free (although the online version is free).

Quote:
There is nothing illegal about me as a citizen having a personal copy of any state documentation, certainly including SOU 2000:100.
Quite the opposite, the constitution explicitly supports it. It's my right as a citizen! The fact that I choose to format the text a bit, is my personal business.
And in some (many?) countries there's nothing illegal in having personal copies of other copyrighted material, and even distributing them, as long as it's not done for profit. In any case, we are not the Internet police, we simply warn readers that there are some laws around that may be important, and it's the user's responsibility to know them.

Quote:
You can write to them and ask if this troubles you, but I know I've got my ducks in a row so certainly won't bother.
Of course I won't. My only concern would be if you wanted to distribute the work through this site, because then we (the MR team) have to care about the whole site, not about ourselves personally, and different rules may apply.
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