Dutch judge allows sale of used ebooks

[NightGeometry]

Isn't reselling of ebooks (with DRM control), effectively a case of limited time rental of ebooks? Effectively I'd be paying (say) £2 for the rental of an ebook, with a £10 deposit on it. I get the deposit back when I decide I no longer want the book.

This differs (I guess), in that it doesn't take in to account demand for the book. I.e. in second hand sales someone has to want the book I'm selling.

I think that with DRM support this would be fairly easy to do. For book sellers it actually gives a reasonable explanation for why they add DRM in the first place, too. Also, as noted, it would be technically easy to have a scheme where the merchant, publisher and author get a cut of the second hand book sale, which has to be a plus.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

The same applies to CDs. Readily copied with full digital fidelity. There's nothing (except personal morality) stopping someone buying CDs, copying them, and then re-selling the CDs.

It's similar in that sense, but not similar in the sense that a CD is a physical product which degrades - it gets scratched, etc. There are reasons to prefer to prefer a new CD to a second-hand one. There is no reason to prefer a new ebook to a "used" one.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There is no reason to prefer a new ebook to a "used" one.

Given the worries expressed in this thread about altered text or malware in the book, there are reasons to prefer a new ebook to a second-hand one.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Given the worries expressed in this thread about altered text or malware in the book, there are reasons to prefer a new ebook to a second-hand one.

There are those of a certain mindset who would have that concern, yes.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by NightGeometry

Isn't reselling of ebooks (with DRM control), effectively a case of limited time rental of ebooks?

No. Rental has a clear meaning in the physical world. This is a distinct licensing arraignment with it's own rights and terms, and it cannot be equated to buying or renting a physical item. Nor should it be. It's a different thing with different properties and different concerns.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Given the worries expressed in this thread about altered text or malware in the book, there are reasons to prefer a new ebook to a second-hand one.

Originally Posted by HarryT

There are those of a certain mindset who would have that concern, yes.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that concern, but I guess I'm one of those people, if folks are going to pass off heavily altered versions of something as if it were the original, rather than an identified different version or derived work.
New ebook sellers would take on a gate-keeping function, sort of like the BPHs do now. Rather than filtering what gets published, they'd help ensure people that what it says on the box is what's really inside the package.

OMG. DRM might serve to protect readers from unwanted content changes! What a horrible sleeping-with-the-enemy thought!*

The used book model proposed above is interesting. Worthy of some further thought and discussion, I think.

ApK

* Actually, digital signatures would work better for that purpose and not restrict my use in the process. Whew...that was a close one....

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

The same applies to CDs. Readily copied with full digital fidelity. There's nothing (except personal morality) stopping someone buying CDs, copying them, and then re-selling the CDs.

Of course the morally corrupt can only sell the CD once, used ebooks can be sold ad infinitum.

Unless some kind of online database of all books sold and current ownership is produced (Or you get a physical owner tag of some kind like with a CD) there is nothing to stop 1 person buying an ebook then undercutting the publisher and selling the used ebook a few hundred thousand times.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Of course the morally corrupt can only sell the CD once, used ebooks can be sold ad infinitum.

Unless some kind of online database of all books sold and current ownership is produced (Or you get a physical owner tag of some kind like with a CD) there is nothing to stop 1 person buying an ebook then undercutting the publisher and selling the used ebook a few hundred thousand times.

I understand this store will only permit the sales of digitally watermarked books, presumably for that very reason - ie so that each book bought can only be sold once.

[Greg Anos]

only one copy available for sale at a time. The same copy could be sold (serially) multiple times...

[ApK]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Of course the morally corrupt can only sell the CD once, used ebooks can be sold ad infinitum.

CDs can be easily, quickly and cheaply duplicated ad infinitum*, except that although the content will be an exact digital duplicate, without additional effort and expense, the physical product will obviously be a copy, which lowers the value to most buyers, as evidenced by the cost of such things at street vendor tables in NYC and at flea markets.

ApK

*not as easily, quickly and cheaply as purely digital goods like ebooks or downloadable music, but on the spectrum, far closer to those, than to the effort, time, and cost of duplicating, say, a paper book.

[sirmaru]

A ruling by a Dutch judge does NOT change laws in other nations. There may be little copyright protection in Uzbekistan but lots of protections and penalties in the USA.

Each citizen of each nation, state or provence is governed by the laws of his jurisdiction, ONLY.

However, the internationality of the Internet does create lots of potential conflicts.

Plus, all of us are governed by author, publisher and retailer agreements implied or explicit. Violate Amazon's customer agreement, and your account could be closed.

[hardcastle]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Given the worries expressed in this thread about altered text or malware in the book, there are reasons to prefer a new ebook to a second-hand one.

And for me, I'd worry if the quality of the text is up to par. There's a lot of differing versions of ebook files out there.

I wish Amazon/Nook/Kobo and the like would stand behind formatting and no-typo quality of their files.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by sirmaru

A ruling by a Dutch judge does NOT change laws in other nations. There may be little copyright protection in Uzbekistan but lots of protections and penalties in the USA.

Each citizen of each nation, state or provence is governed by the laws of his jurisdiction, ONLY.

However, the internationality of the Internet does create lots of potential conflicts.

Plus, all of us are governed by author, publisher and retailer agreements implied or explicit. Violate Amazon's customer agreement, and your account could be closed.

True, but I'd guess that it could set a precedent that other countries could follow in the future, and some aspects of copyright law are international even though different countries have different lengths of copyright protection after the author has died, so I could see other courts in different countries following or not following the Dutch judge's lead.

[tompe]

Ebooks deteriorate in the sense that newer editions will have fewer errors.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by tompe

Ebooks deteriorate in the sense that newer editions will have fewer errors.

Or have new errors introduced