Dutch judge allows sale of used ebooks

[geertm]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

The site should be closed down because of its weird name alone

Tom Kabinet almost has to be derived from "Uncle Tom's Cabin." And a Cabin is not the same as a Kabinet. The first is a building, the second is a storage compartment

"Tom Kabinet" is Danish for "empty bookcase" (according to a Dutch article).
Google translates it as "empty enclosure".

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by Mike L

It is certainly a benefit to both the seller and the buyer. The problem is that it would seriously degrade the overall e-book market. There would be no incentive for people to buy new e-books if they can buy them second-hand (at a presumably lower price). So authors and publishers would suffer, and that might discourage them from producing e-books in marginal cases. In the long run, that would be bad for us all.

I'm not saying that the judgement is necessarily wrong, only that it is a mistake to consider the benefit without looking at the possible consequences.

Mike

People can only buy second hand ebooks if people sell legally purchased copies of ebooks to begin with. And it is not like every person who buys an ebook will sell it.

The ability to resell however will increase the value of the purchase for potential buyers.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Mike L

It is certainly a benefit to both the seller and the buyer. The problem is that it would seriously degrade the overall e-book market. There would be no incentive for people to buy new e-books if they can buy them second-hand (at a presumably lower price). So authors and publishers would suffer, and that might discourage them from producing e-books in marginal cases. In the long run, that would be bad for us all.

As if the used hardback (and paperback) book market has killed the new hardback (and paperback) book market. It comes down to -- are you actually buying the eBook, or are you merely borrowing it? If you've bought it, you should be able to sell it or donate it to the library.

At least that's the way I see it. If the publishers want to sell eBooks at near the price of paper books, the buyers should have the right to sell them.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by rcentros

are you actually buying the eBook, or are you merely borrowing it? If you've bought it, you should be able to sell it or donate it to the library.

Oh, for Pete's sake. Please define for me exactly what "it" is, if you can, but please do it here:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=239064

so we don't need to repeat ourselves - again - so soon.

[GreenMonkey]

Originally Posted by Nate the great

1. This is true but I don't see how it is necessarily bad that digital content doesn't decay. I see that as a benefit, and the effect it has on existing business models is not unexpected.

I still think that a physical book is far more likely to work than any sort of DRM'd ebook in the decades to come.

Try picking up a digital file from the 1980s or the 1990s and using it as intended.

Given that, at least with Kindle and Epub, they are well-understood and minted on a sort-of-open-standard (except for the DRM), our odds are better than opening a WordStar file or running a 16-bit program.

That said, digital obsolescence is a real issue. Do you really think the first Kindle will be supported forever? Or that Amazon or Nook won't possibly be out of business in 2035 or whatever and people won't lose their books like they did with DRM'd music from the Microsoft store that shut down?

It'll happen. It's probably just a matter of time.

Even for the people that think "That could never happen, Amazon will be around forever!"...

People losing physical books is the same as people losing Amazon/Nook account info and never get it back, or they lose the device and have no idea what the account info was. People die and digital content isn't inherited (another outstanding issue).
People's accounts can get banned.
etc.

Just because they don't wear out, per se, doesn't mean that there aren't ways for them to end up non-readable / non-usable.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

It'll happen. It's probably just a matter of time.

I agree it's a concern, but I don't think it's a given. In fact, I think the Information Age has given us the awareness and the tools to prevent the sort of digital obsolescence you are talking about. It's far easier to preserve digital data than it is to conserve paper books. We could do with sheer distributed volume what in the paper world would take materials, skill, and climate controlled environs. You've heard of "rare books?" I dount we'll ever hear of "rare ebooks."

An 80s vintage 8" disk might be hard to "use as intended" today, but we are well along the route of having separated content from media, or even format.

True, all humanity's technology can collapse, we could go back to the level of the stone age and not be able to access ANY digital info, but by the same token, we could all go blind, illiterate or atrophy to the point where we could no longer access any paper books, too. Stuff happens.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey

I still think that a physical book is far more likely to work than any sort of DRM'd ebook in the decades to come.

Try picking up a digital file from the 1980s or the 1990s and using it as intended.

This is true. Just look st all of the dead computer systems that came and went in the 1980s and 1970s, or the many late gaming consoles. There is a lot of content that is only still usable because someone broke copyright law and made the code work on newer systems (emulators).

[twowheels]

It seems that the publishers should see the 'writing on the wall' and act in their own self interest to head off these types of legal challenges.

If they used their existing power given by DRM and worked with the major sellers to create a "resell this book" feature where people could submit the book for sell as used (which would remove your capability to access it on your devices, like lending the book does). If your copy sells (used copies sold in a first-in-first-out order) Amazon [or other vendor] keeps a cut, the publisher keeps a cut, and the seller gets 70% of the sell price, and everybody's happy.

If you decide, before the book sells, you could retract it from the for-sale stack and get it back.

I suspect that many people who don't re-read (myself included) would sell some of their books back when they're done reading them and everybody'd be legit and benefit for all. I'd probably buy more books new and for a higher price if I knew that I could resell them.

I think that used books would sell for more than used books do currently (due to the lack of degradation of digital files that everybody keeps mentioning) and yet the publisher gets a cut of used sales, which they currently don't with paper books.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by twowheels

It seems that the publishers should see the 'writing on the wall' and act in their own self interest to head off these types of legal challenges.

If they used their existing power given by DRM and worked with the major sellers to create a "resell this book" feature where people could submit the book for sell as used (which would remove your capability to access it on your devices, like lending the book does). If your copy sells (used copies sold in a first-in-first-out order) Amazon [or other vendor] keeps a cut, the publisher keeps a cut, and the seller gets 70% of the sell price, and everybody's happy.

If you decide, before the book sells, you could retract it from the for-sale stack and get it back.

I suspect that many people who don't re-read (myself included) would sell some of their books back when they're done reading them and everybody'd be legit and benefit for all. I'd probably buy more books new and for a higher price if I knew that I could resell them.

I think that used books would sell for more than used books do currently (due to the lack of degradation of digital files that everybody keeps mentioning) and yet the publisher gets a cut of used sales, which they currently don't with paper books.

I suspect that with bestsellers sold through Amazon it would be like the current system for paper books. Trade your book in for $1.22 credit and they sell it for 11.77+

A year ago there were thousands of bestsellers sold by individuals on Amazon, but the prices were often under a dime. Now I can't fid them? links anyone.

If 10,000 people pre ordered a bestseller, then at least 3,000 would be on sale the next day. And I am thinking that publishers would not allow, and Amazon would not promote selling second hand copies till the sales fell of for new copies. By then their might be 100,000 people queued up to sell their 'used' ebooks, and if they wanted 1/2 price for instance, very good chance the book has already been discounted by that much or more. The publishers have unlimited copies they can sell, and I am sure some fee would be applied to a license transfer. No way they couldn't under cut anyone actually trying to get more then 50 cents for a used book, and for that amount it seems economically unviable. Too much trouble to go to.

Helen

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by twowheels

I think that used books would sell for more than used books do currently (due to the lack of degradation of digital files that everybody keeps mentioning) and yet the publisher gets a cut of used sales, which they currently don't with paper books.

Let's see if I understand your proposal.

There is no difference to the buyer between a used eBook and a new one. And the same merchants sell both. So there's no reason for the merchant to communicate to the buyer whether the copy purchased was new or used, because there is no such thing as used or new. It all comes from the same bit-bucket.

If that's right, then, your proposal is for Amazon, kobo, etc., to buy back eBooks after reading. Then, Amazon gets rewarded for setting up the buy-back software by being allowed to pay the publisher a radically reduced price for a number of copies equal to the buy-back.

Originally Posted by twowheels

I'd probably buy more books new and for a higher price if I knew that I could resell them.

And not just you. Your plan would increase the economic value of eBooks and thus the initial selling price. I'm not giving that as a reason to oppose it. I haven't thought through the implications enough to have an opinion yet.

Your plan, again if I understand it, transfers money from book collectors to those who read once and then toss. Since I don't collect books, this isn't totally repellent to me

[Barcey]

It's interesting that Tom Kabinet is only charging a 10% commission. I don't know what their return policy is if the seller doesn't get what they expected. My assumption is that Tom Kabinet doesn't pay for the used ebook until they have a committed buyer but maybe they don't pay the seller for a couple of weeks after the sale to make sure it's not returned. I don't see the 10% commission as being sustainable when they have to police if the seller has a valid copy and take the legal risk if they don't.

My question is that how much cheaper would it have to be for someone to buy a used ebook. The rights holder is only getting 5% and the quality is unknown. I'd guess that most people that are price sensitive and aren't worried about the author getting compensated would just download from a file sharing site.

On the selling side I have the same question. How much would you have to get to bother trying to resell versus not being able to re-read it in the future.

It might stop the publishers from being able to price the ebooks equivalent to a paper book but if they price it like the rental they claim it is (a temporary license for only one person to read it) then I think it would kill any viable market to sell them used.

I don't feel strongly that I need the right to be able to resell my ebooks but I also don't see a value to anybody else to buy them. I just don't see this as a make or break thing for publishing. If they price the ebooks properly it would kill this as a viable market. The only exception I can see is for educational text books that cost $100's and maybe people should be able to resell those like paper books. Either that or build the cost into the course tuition.

[crich70]

How about the possibility that someone has attached a virus to an "ebook" file that is being resold. I don't know if it's possible but I imagine someone somewhere is trying to work out if it is and if it should turn out that it is exactly how to do it.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by crich70

How about the possibility that someone has attached a virus to an "ebook" file that is being resold. I don't know if it's possible but I imagine someone somewhere is trying to work out if it is and if it should turn out that it is exactly how to do it.

Is this just a general "what if someone tries to give me a virus" question?

It wouldn't affect me, since the virus would be written for Windows, not linux.

A bunch of people would double-click on a file that has the ebook icon, and accidentally run a program instead. Very sad, but hardly anything new.

That would be a virus masquerading as an ebook. In order to embed a virus in an ebook, you'd have to find some security flaw to exploit in the ereader program -- one that gives you access to the OS.

Any reputable source for used ebooks would probably be checking for the watermark, by comparing the book to a master copy. They'd notice weird resources hiding out in the EPUB zip.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HarryT

2. How could it be ensured that the seller had deleted the book? What would be to stop someone buying an ebook, selling it, but keeping a copy for themselves?

The same applies to CDs. Readily copied with full digital fidelity. There's nothing (except personal morality) stopping someone buying CDs, copying them, and then re-selling the CDs.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Is this just a general "what if someone tries to give me a virus" question?

It wouldn't affect me, since the virus would be written for Windows, not linux.

A bunch of people would double-click on a file that has the ebook icon, and accidentally run a program instead. Very sad, but hardly anything new.

That would be a virus masquerading as an ebook. In order to embed a virus in an ebook, you'd have to find some security flaw to exploit in the ereader program -- one that gives you access to the OS.

Any reputable source for used ebooks would probably be checking for the watermark, by comparing the book to a master copy. They'd notice weird resources hiding out in the EPUB zip.

Sort of a general question yes. I mean if you buy an ebook 'brand new' from Amazon or Kobo then you know that it's probably safe to open it in your desktop app or on your smart phone reader app or where ever, but how would the person buying the 'used' copy know that it was virus free, or wasn't a virus disguised as an ebook? For that matter how would the buyer know that the 'seller' had the right to resell that particular copy of the ebook? Someone could be able to clean up selling pirated copies of an ebook if they aren't connected with an ebook selling store like Amazon or Kobo but instead are some sort of freelance seller. At least buying from the original store you know that it isn't a virus masquerading as an ebook and that the ebook isn't a pirated copy someone found somewhere.