Piracy is necessary and doesn't hurt revenues

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

I would say that downloading a movie to a device so that you can have access to it outside of the territory it was purchased in counts as circumventing territorial restrictions.

I believe that's referring to Amazon's streaming services, not to downloads. You can't stream Amazon video if you're outside the UK, but there's certainly no restriction on where you can watch a video that you've downloaded. You don't have to take my word for it - ask Amazon Customer Service.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I believe that's referring to Amazon's streaming services, not to downloads. You can't stream Amazon video if you're outside the UK, but there's certainly no restriction on where you can watch a video that you've downloaded. You don't have to take my word for it - ask Amazon Customer Service.

That is from the End User License agreement for Amazon Instant Video, which includes streaming and downloads. Did you bother to click on the link I provided? I will not ask Amazon UK...why would I? I don't live there. I suggest that if you have a question in your mind at all, you need to ask Amazon yourself. If you don't, and you still access content purchased in the UK while you are in a different country, then you are being dishonest with yourself. I also notice that you did not have a reply for the fact that it does not say in the Netflix TOS that it is a US only service.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

That is from the End User License agreement for Amazon Instant Video, which includes streaming and downloads. Did you bother to click on the link I provided? I will not ask Amazon UK...why would I? I don't live there. I suggest that if you have a question in your mind at all, you need to ask Amazon yourself.

You haven't read it properly. You can't bypass territorial restrictions. Right. What territorial restrictions? The ones referred to earlier in the T&Cs which tell you that the streaming service is restricted to the UK and Channel Islands. There are no restrictions on where you can watch something after you've downloaded. That would be silly.

I also notice that you did not have a reply for the fact that it does not say in the Netflix TOS that it is a US only service.

You didn't provide enough information. You said that it was available "in the list of regions below" but you didn't say what those regions were.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't have any questions. It's perfectly clear to me what it means.

Yes. It means that you may not "circumvent any territorial restrictions applied to Amazon's Products and Services". Downloading for the purpose of viewing in a different territory is absolutely attempting to "circumvent any territorial restrictions applied to Amazon's Products and Services".

You didn't provide enough information. You said that it was available "in the list of regions below" but you didn't say what those regions were.

The attached image is from https://help.netflix.com/en/node/14164?catId=en%2F131 The areas in red are the areas where the service is available.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

YThe attached image is from https://help.netflix.com/en/node/14164?catId=en%2F131 The areas in red are the areas where the service is available.

Shari

Thank you. Germany is not highlighted on that map, so it is unreasonable for a subscriber to believe that they would be able to access the service in Germany, is it not?

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Thank you. Germany is not highlighted on that map, so it is unreasonable for a subscriber to believe that they would be able to access the service in Germany, is it not?

True...and the author of the article could have found that and known that she wouldn't be able to access her stuff from outside the US. My opinion on whether or not you believe that Terms of Use and territorial rights trump all will be decided by your answer to my question below.

Do you have an answer for my statement that "Downloading for the purpose of viewing in a different territory is absolutely attempting to "circumvent any territorial restrictions applied to Amazon's Products and Services"."?

I do notice that this particular statement is NOT in the Amazon.com terms of use, but it IS in the Amazon UK terms of use.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

Do you have an answer for my statement that "Downloading for the purpose of viewing in a different territory is absolutely attempting to "circumvent any territorial restrictions applied to Amazon's Products and Services"."?

Yes. I think it's complete nonsense, as I've already said. The "territorial restrictions" referred to are those specifically mentioned earlier in the T&Cs, which tell you that the streaming service is geographically restricted to the UK and Channel Islands. It would be ludicrous to say "you can download a file in the UK, but you can't watch it somewhere else". If you think that's what it means, you are of course perfectly entitled to that belief, but I certainly don't agree with you.

[HarryT]

Just for your benefit, shalym, I've sent the following question to Amazon Customer Service:

Dear Support,

I'd like to ask a question about the "Instant Video" service, please. I know that the video streaming service is only available in the UK, but if I buy a video and download it to my iPad, will I be able to watch it on my iPad if I travel to a different country?

Thank you,

Will you accept the answer to this question as definitive?

[PKFFW]

HarryT,

I'm confused. You claim to not be qualified to determine if what the blogger has done is morally wrong or not. However, you keep using the term "justified" and it's derivatives.

Use of the term justified, at least here in Australia, has no legal meaning. You can't be "justified" in committing copyright infringement. You are either guilty of it or not. The term justified only makes sense in an ethical or moral statement. As our legal system is based on the UK system I would imagine it is the same in the UK.

Eg: If you use the defence of "fair use" you are not justified in committing copyright infringement. Instead you are not guilty of committing the offence of copyright infringement.

I do not believe "I paid for the digital content via multiple sources and now that I temporarily live in Germany I can no longer access my paid for content so I decided to access it via a piracy site" has ever been tested as a defence against the charge of copyright infringement in a court of law. Therefore by your own reasoning, as evidenced in your comments to RSE, you can't say if what the blogger has done is in fact considered copyright infringement.

So either choose different wording or admit that you are making a moral judgement.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by shalym

This is from Amazon UK's terms of service:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cust...deId=201422760
I would say that downloading a movie to a device so that you can have access to it outside of the territory it was purchased in counts as circumventing territorial restrictions.

Well, that would depend very much as to where one is when outside of those territorial restrictions.

While they may have a technical case of breach of contract I suspect that in countries, such as my own, where the law specifically does not give protection to copyright holders restricting mere access to the viewing of such media, a civil case of breach of contract would likely not progress very far at all. That especially in countries which have strong consumer rights legislation which fundamentally does not support sellers in their contracting outside of the normal legal consumer rights of the purchaser.

To forestall any case of confusion, here, while copyright holders have legal protections of their rights the copyright holder has to pursue a civil case in the event those rights are breached; unlike in the USA, for example, where (I am told?) breaches of copyright of the likes of movies is a federal offense.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Just for your benefit, shalym, I've sent the following question to Amazon Customer Service:

Will you accept the answer to this question as definitive?

I will. Will you?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

I will. Will you?

Shari

Certainly.

[HarryT]

Amazon's (slightly odd) reply to my question, but it does answer it:

Message From Customer Service
Dear Xxxxx,

Please accept my sincerest apologies and my thanks for your continued patience.

I understand from your email that you wish to use 'Prime Instant Video' service in Abroad.

I would like to inform you that Prime Instant Video titles are available to anyone with a UK Amazon Prime or Prime Instant Video membership located in the UK, Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. It isn't possible to access Prime Instant Video titles outside of the UK, Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

However, you can download videos to a compatible device while still in the United Kingdom, and then play them back on that device from anywhere.

You can view a list of devices capable of downloading videos on our following help page:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cust...deId=201460880

More information about Prime Instant Video is available on our Help pages:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dv/piv

We value our international customers. I appreciate your thoughts and have forwarded your feedback to the Amazon Instant Video development team.

As a compensation for any inconvenience caused to you recently,* I have requested a 5% refund on your annual subscription fee which is equal to £2.45 and it will be credited to your account within 2-3 working days.

Once again I apologise for the inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience and co-operation in this matter.

We look forward to seeing you again soon.

Warmest regards,
Imran P

Amazon.co.uk
Original Message
---------------
07/20/14 22:02:39
Your name:Xxxxx
Commentsear Support,

I'd like to ask a question about the "Instant Video" service, please. I know that the video streaming service is only available in the UK, but if I buy a video and download it to my iPad, will I be able to watch it on my iPad if I travel to a different country?

Thank you,
---------------

(Emphasis mine). Ie it's exactly as I thought: the service can only be accessed while you're in the UK, but it's fine to download from the UK then playback from elsewhere.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Amazon's (slightly odd) reply to my question, but it does answer it:

(Emphasis mine). Ie it's exactly as I thought: the service can only be accessed while you're in the UK, but it's fine to download from the UK then playback from elsewhere.

Thank you very much. It would seem then, that you were right. So in theory, you could download all of your prime videos to a computer or other device and watch them from abroad, as often as you'd like, as long as your device doesn't break. Good to know.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

Thank you very much. It would seem then, that you were right. So in theory, you could download all of your prime videos to a computer or other device and watch them from abroad, as often as you'd like, as long as your device doesn't break. Good to know.

Shari

Agreed. It's certainly the way that I interpreted the T&C's, but as we saw here, different people can interpret things in different ways. At least I've made £2.45 out of my completely non-existent "problem" .