Piracy is necessary and doesn't hurt revenues

[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, I was answering your question about whether or not it was copyright infringement. The answer to that is simple: yes, it is.

Whether or not it's morally wrong is an entirely different question, which I'm not qualified to answer.

Okay. It seemed from many of your responses in this thread that you were arguing it was morally wrong. My apologies for misunderstanding your position.

I guess from the letter of the law you are likely correct. However as no actual loss or harm has been done to the copyright holder, I would argue that in relation to the spirit of the law you are not correct.

Copyright law is primarily there to ensure the copyright holder is properly and fairly compensated for their work by having some control over the distribution of the work. It is not primarily to ensure the copyright holder controls every aspect of how the end user can access their paid for content. In this instance I believe the copyright holder will receive multiples of fair and proper compensation from the blogger. So if the blogger wants to access it via a piracy site after having fairly compensated the copyright holder for their work then I would argue the spirit of the law has not been broken and that is the important factor.

To argue that the letter of the law is being broken seems rather pedantic. And to further argue that the fact the blogger has properly compensated the copyright holder for the content is no justification for accessing the content via a pirate site rather than some legitimate channel seems a rather mean spirited position.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes.

She has paid for the right to access the material in the US, but not in Germany. ... The fact that she's paid to access the material in the US doesn't change this.

So you're saying that accessing US content from another country is copyright infringement, even if you've already paid for it? Would it have been copyright infringement if she had used a VPN to spoof her IP address and THEN accessed the content?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

So you're saying that accessing US content from another country is copyright infringement, even if you've already paid for it?

No, that's not what I'm saying, and not what this woman did. She downloaded a pirated version of a TV show in Germany, using as a justification for it the fact that she'd paid to stream the show in the US.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, that's not what I'm saying, and not what this woman did. She downloaded a pirated version of a TV show in Germany, using as a justification for it the fact that she'd paid to stream the show in the US.

I understand that she downloaded a pirated version. I maintain that there is absolutely no moral or legal difference between what she did and using a VPN to mask your location. I believe that the publishers would agree.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

I understand that she downloaded a pirated version. I maintain that there is absolutely no moral or legal difference between what she did and using a VPN to mask your location. I believe that the publishers would agree.

Shari

You don't think there's a difference between downloading and streaming? Can you download and keep all the programmes with a Netflix subscription?

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You don't think there's a difference between downloading and streaming? Can you download and keep all the programmes with a Netflix subscription?

Do you have proof that she keeps the programs she downloads? If she downloads the programs and then deletes them after she watches them, then no...there is absolutely no difference. Before you say that nobody would actually do that...of course they would. I would, and I am definitely somebody.

And...If I buy movies or shows from Amazon US, I can download them to my computer/tablet if I'm in the US. If I'm outside the country, I can not. I'm not sure what happens to movies that I've already downloaded to my device if I'm outside the US--I've never tested that scenario. Would a person be justified in sailing into pirate waters in that case?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

Do you have proof that she keeps the programs she downloads? If she downloads the programs and then deletes them after she watches them, then no...there is absolutely no difference. Before you say that nobody would actually do that...of course they would. I would, and I am definitely somebody.

You didn't answer my question. Can someone download programmes from Netflix, or is it just a streaming service? They are two totally different things. You'll generally pay a lot more for a downloading service than you will for a streaming one. To say that the two are equivalent is simply false, regardless of what you do with the downloaded programme thereafter. I certainly don't think that having paid to stream a programme gives you the automatic right to download it. Do you?

And...If I buy movies or shows from Amazon US, I can download them to my computer/tablet if I'm in the US. If I'm outside the country, I can not. I'm not sure what happens to movies that I've already downloaded to my device if I'm outside the US--I've never tested that scenario. Would a person be justified in sailing into pirate waters in that case?

I don't think they would. What you believe is of course your decision to make.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You didn't answer my question. Can someone download programmes from Netflix, or is it just a streaming service? They are two totally different things. You'll generally pay a lot more for a downloading service than you will for a streaming one. To say that the two are equivalent is simply false, regardless of what you do with the downloaded programme thereafter. I certainly don't think that having paid to stream a programme gives you the automatic right to download it. Do you?

You can not download a program through Netflix, or through Amazon Prime Video. Amazon Instant Video is NOT Amazon Prime Video, though--It's a separate thing where you buy the video and have the option to download it to up to 3 devices, or you can stream it directly on your device. The scenario I was talking about with downloading the video was based on that. There is no subscription for that, it's more like buying Kindle books than having an Amazon Prime subscription and using it to stream movies.
Yes, I DO believe that if I can not access the content through streaming I would be justified in downloading it, as long as I delete it immediately.

I don't think they would. What you believe is of course your decision to make.

So if you buy a Kindle book from Amazon from your house in the UK, and then went to the US for an extended stay, you wouldn't have a problem with Amazon not allowing you to download the book to your Kindle anymore? That is exactly what happens with Amazon Instant Video. Would you buy a new US licensed copy of the book? Or would you just read the book from your Calibre created backup? If you use your backup, then there is absolutely no difference between that and downloading from a pirate site. The US publisher doesn't get their money in either case, and you made an illegal copy of the book to put it onto your Kindle. Whether it is legal in your home country to strip DRM for backup purpose is irrelevant at that point--you're in the US, where it IS illegal.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

Yes, I DO believe that if I can not access the content through streaming I would be justified in downloading it, as long as I delete it immediately.

We must agree to differ. If you've paid for a streaming service in one place, that doesn't entitle you to that same service in a place where you have NOT paid for it, any more than buying a ticket to see a film in one cinema entitles you to see it in a different one.

So if you buy a Kindle book from Amazon from your house in the UK, and then went to the US for an extended stay, you wouldn't have a problem with Amazon not allowing you to download the book to your Kindle anymore?

No problem at all, if I'd been told in advance that this would be the case, and streaming services DO tell their customers this. The fact that someone is too damned lazy to find out what it is they're actually buying can't be used to justify piracy.

[taosaur]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Let's take the example earlier in the thread of the person who claimed that they "had" to pirate "Game of Thrones" because it wasn't available to watch where they lived. That person clearly had the choice of waiting for the DVD release, and then buying the DVD, but chose to pirate it instead. That's a clear case of economic damage to the producer.

Except in the case where availability of your IP via piracy heightens interest and maintains emotional investment in that IP, creating an enlarged, eager market for licensed products when they do become available. That's a clear case of economic advantage to the producer.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No problem at all, if I'd been told in advance that this would be the case, and streaming services DO tell their customers this. The fact that someone is too damned lazy to find out what it is they're actually buying can't be used to justify piracy.

So would you then buy the book again in the US, or would you use your Calibre created backup? Or would you just not read the book, even if you had been in the middle of it when you crossed the international border?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

So would you then buy the book again in the US, or would you use your Calibre created backup? Or would you just not read the book, even if you had been in the middle of it when you crossed the international border?

Shari

You're confusing the issue again by talking about two different things. A streaming service is not the same thing as a download service, and can't be treated as though it were the same.

If I'd paid for a UK-only streaming service I would not expect to be able to use it outside the UK.

If I'd paid for a UK-only download service, I'd make sure that I had what I wanted on my device before travelling.

Above all, though, I'd have made sure that I knew what it was that I was buying.

I can't access the US Netflix site, so you tell me: how easy is it to discover that it's a US-only streaming service?

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You're confusing the issue again by talking about two different things. A streaming service is not the same thing as a download service, and can't be treated as though it were the same.

If I'd paid for a UK-only streaming service I would not expect to be able to use it outside the UK.

If I'd paid for a UK-only download service, I'd make sure that I had what I wanted on my device before travelling.

Above all, though, I'd have made sure that I knew what it was that I was buying.

If you buy a video from Amazon and download it to your device, you are going against Amazon's Terms of Service by watching it outside of the territory it was intended to be watched in, as well as depriving the US distributor of income. I maintain that if it is wrong to do one, it is just as wrong to do the other. Either way, you paid to access it in one country, and it's against the TOS to watch it in another, so you should be paying the content provider at the new location.

To answer the last question you asked about finding out that the Netflix service is US only, it doesn't say that anywhere. What it says is:

Members with a streaming-only plan will be able to watch instantly through the Netflix service from within the regions listed below. The movies and TV shows that are available to stream may vary by location, and will change from time to time.

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

If you buy a video from Amazon and download it to your device, you are going against Amazon's Terms of Service by watching it outside of the territory it was intended to be watched in

Can you give a reference to this term of service, please? That would be an extraordinary restriction to place on a download, and I've never seen such a restriction. I'm not doubting you, but I would like to see it for myself.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Can you give a reference to this term of service, please? That would be an extraordinary restriction to place on a download, and I've never seen such a restriction. I'm not doubting you, but I would like to see it for myself.

This is from Amazon UK's terms of service:

You agree that you will not and you will not assist any third party to:

copy, reproduce, transmit, modify, alter, reverse-engineer, emulate, de-compile, or disassemble the Software in any way, or create derivative works of the Software;
use the Software or any portion of it to create any tool or software product that can be used to create software applications of any nature whatsoever;
rent, lease, loan, make available to the public, sell or distribute the Software in whole or in part;
tamper with the Software or circumvent any technology used by Amazon or its Licensors to protect any content accessible through the Digital Content Service;
circumvent any territorial restrictions applied to Amazon's Products and Services; or
use the Software in a way that violates this Licence Agreement or the Terms and Conditions.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cust...deId=201422760
I would say that downloading a movie to a device so that you can have access to it outside of the territory it was purchased in counts as circumventing territorial restrictions.

Shari