George R.R. Martin Has a Message For Anyone Who Thinks He Won’t Finish A Song of Ice

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Geralt

He didn't write these books for fans, but for himself, and he won't finish them for fans either.

What about the calendars? Were those for himself? How about The World of Ice and Fire companion book? That for himself too?

I understand the sentiment that he (or any author) may not have started writing these "for the fans." But to try and take them (the fans) completely out of the equation for the motivation behind a massive, self-feeding (and ever expanding) franchise endeavor is silly--and a good deal disingenuous.

If he was writing them for just himself and everyone-else-be-damned, they would have been done already and we'd likely have never heard of them. There wouldn't be a blog inviting external commentary, there wouldn't be public speaking engagements, there wouldn't be convention tours and TV contracts and calendars and companion volumes. There would be George sitting at home in New Mexico churning out books and ignoring the rest of the world's reaction to A Song of Ice and Fire. Fact is; George is writing them to be read.

I'm not saying an author should be beholden to fans or anything like that. Or that George is only in it for the money/fame. But any opinion that pretends there's absolutely no commercial, legacy-building, got-the-fans-now-lets-see-how-far-we-can-run-with-it motives behind the book series being extended (and novellas being inserted) is a blind one.

And it's OK to be franchise-minded. Perfectly fine. But then you don't get play the "poor author just wants to be left alone to tell his story to himself" card. It doesn't wash.

Authors need fans to write books to get fans to write more books to get more money from the fans so they can have more time to write books for a living.

I don't doubt that there are authors that are writing (or have written) books strictly for their own personal satisfaction. But they're not the authors of genre series' that go on the 4-5+ (and then get mysteriously extended) installment plan.

Author George gets no special-snowflake exemption from criticism of things/ideas/processes he decided to share with the world (through books, blog, interviews, or public appearances) just because he's author George.

[Geralt]

You have some valid points DiapDealer.
However I think money is not a relevant part of equation for GRRM. I mean, it's not like he needs one more million to live and write more books. Let's be real, commercial side plays an insignificant role here imo.
I don't know who does the calendars, I highly doubt they have much text on them, you know
As for companion books, it's not unusual for a writer to want to write those. Terry Pratchett has written several of them for Discword, as well as cookbooks It rounds up the world nicely.

I think he is a bit burned out on ASOIAF tbh, and he likes to diversify his work to other things. I mean who doesn't? Can you really blame him for that?

I still think he writes primarily for himself. On the other hand, after GOT show, books have blew up in popularity 100x and he's got a whole new base of fans. I think we can all agree to that.
I think that with this new audience came new pressure. GOT for some people is the best thing since sliced bread, and they want to get their ending or final story no matter what.
People really just need to take a chill pill. The world will not go down if he doesn't finish. There are so many fantasy books out there, to read. The problem is I suppose large portion of this new audience doesn't read other fantasy and they are just hung up on this particular story.

Maybe I need to clarify what I mean by "for himself". I didn't mean he doesn't want them to be read. Of course he does. He's a writer.
What I mean is, he writes them in his own pace, with his own ideas, without serving the audience. He doesn't take suggestions by his biggest fans he personally knows. I don't think he will take any kind of pressure either and be like:

I'm so sorry people! I'll write faster! Forgive me!

That will not happen. If people start foaming at the mouth, demanding endings, it will not speed up Martin's writing process.

[DiapDealer]

I think he is a bit burned out on ASOIAF tbh, and he likes to diversify his work to other things. I mean who doesn't? Can you really blame him for that?

Nope. I wouldn't blame him at all for that. I don't think anyone would blame him for that, actually ... IF he was up front about it. But no, he blames the delays on Meerenese Knots and pretty much everything BUT "Hey, I'm a little burnt out on the thing, I need a break, guys."

I personally don't care if he finishes the books. I think the series went off the rails years ago. My concern is with the idea that George can say/do whatever he likes and nobody can be the least bit critical about those things without being labeled a "hater" and being beat over the head with Gaiman's "George is not your bitch" pronouncement.

The "George is screwing the pooch" opinions have the same right to be expressed as the "George craps rainbow skittles" opinions. There is no high road to be taken here. There is the aforementioned polar extremes of the "I probably care too deeply" road, and the I don't care road. I'd just like to be able to hook up for beers and conversation at the Inn near the intersection of those two roads without the constant interruption of a call to arms.

It's ok for Rainbow Skittles fans to let a Pooch Screwing fan blather a bit without interrupting. And vice versa, certainly. George won't be harmed ... I promise.

[ProfCrash]

I am in full agreement with DD here.

I am sure that when GRRM started the books it was a great story that he started that he had to write/wanted to write and if it sold that would be awesome. I think I can say the same about many authors of a series, like JKR and Harry Potter.

But there is a very real difference here.

The Harry Potter novels took off and JKR took more time between books and they got longer. But the length of time in between the books was not really all that bad. The first book was published in 1997 and the last book was published in 2007. The books grew in length as the stories developed. It was clear she had an outline from day one and she knew where the characters and the story was going. She has had every opportunity to cash in on this franchise, and she has with the movies, games and theme parks, but she has not given into the demand to write more books based on the characters as adults and the like. Maybe she will, maybe she won't but so far she said she had a specific story to tell and she told it.

GRRM started with a story that he wanted to tell and started out strong. It is a great world, well developed, organized and way bloody but well developed and interesting. Then something happened. The books were meet with a ton of success. People started wanting more. He didn't hold steady to whatever plan he had, he changed that plan. He said that he meant for the fourth book to jump ahead in time to allow the kids to grow up but decided he couldn't do that. Was that because he didn't want to tell the story from that perspective or because he knew he could make more money by writing more books and introducing new characters? Who knows. Only he knows his motivations.

Geralt: Look at his interviews before the TV show. When he was dragging the process out between books three and four, long before the TV series, he was talking about the artistry and all that fun stuff. He was able to deliver a book every two years for the first three books but once it was clear that the series was a huge hit with the fans, it suddenly took a good deal more time to churn out the fourth book. He has gotten worse since the TV series was announced but he was bad before the TV series ever happened. And the pressure was there back then.

All I know, from an outside perspective as someone who loved the first three books, is that he went from delivering a great book once every two years to taking 4-6 years in between books and delivering books that were longer, not as well written and not as focused. Oh, and he added in a TV series. And he his written special novellas.

So, while not a perfect comparison, I can look at two authors who started with an idea that they had to write and took totally different paths. One wrote the story she wanted to write, delivered reasonably quickly while franchising her story and is happy with how it all turned out. Another is writing a story that appears to have changed after the third book was published and has taken an approach that is ok because he is an artist writing for art and not for money and all those people who want him to write the books are simply those who don't understand the grand artistry and really should not be looking at the speaking engagements, tv shows, ever expanding number of books and lack of publishing anything in a timely fashion.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Nope. I wouldn't blame him at all for that. I don't think anyone would blame him for that, actually ... IF he was up front about it. But no, he blames the delays on Meerenese Knots and pretty much everything BUT "Hey, I'm a little burnt out on the thing, I need a break, guys."

I guess he doesn't feel the need to justify himself. His decision really. And even if he did say that, I don't think that changes anything honestly.
Extreme fans would continue bitching and fantasy fans would continue reading other books. Life just goes on.

Anyway, the reason he said fuck you to fans imo, is because some people who claim to be his fans are worrying about his life just because of the books... they are looking him not as a person, just a some kind of machine or entertainment slave as I said, that has to write those books. It's pretty offensive and kinda sad really.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by ProfCrash

I can look at two authors who started with an idea that they had to write and took totally different paths.

Different people, different lives. You can't really compare, but if you really want to here's something. When she wrote HP, JKR was in her prime. Let's face it, GRRM is a cranky old grandpa. And to me that's ok.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

My concern is with the idea that George can say/do whatever he likes and nobody can be the least bit critical about those things without being labeled a "hater" and being beat over the head with Gaiman's "George is not your bitch" pronouncement.

Oh you can express it DD. Of course. Same as I am saying, I don't really care much. Of course we are both rational people and we know that good old George doesn't care either way.

However, the topic here is his Fuck you reaction, which I find completely understandable and human. His fans are fearing for his life, not because they see him as a human being, but as a writer who's only job is to finish some books they are hung up on.

[ProfCrash]

Actually, I can. The difference it that I bought the Harry Potter books because I could trust the author and I have not bought GRRM's books because I cannot trust the author. I understand that I am in the minority in not buying the books for this reason but such is life.

GRRM is 66 years old (born 1948), he first published A Song of Fire and Ice in 1996 when he was 48 years old. He is not all that old. He published the first three books in 6 years. So all the sudden, at the ripe old age of 54 he is over come by old age and loses his ability to tell the story that he had been dreaming of for a while due to old age? Really?

I am sorry but just no. The apologists are almost as annoying as he is.

In a regular work place, GRRM would not be allowed to be this unproductive and keep his job. He is blessed to have a job that allows him to be this lame and still make millions. It allows him to essentially give his fans, the people who put him in this position, the finger. And he has pretty much been giving people the finger since after the delay on book four. And the super fans have been cool with that and have supported him and yelled at the people who are annoyed for him and have given him rave reviews and have yelled at people who gave him bad reviews because he is a genius.

So he has made millions and will make millions more and get away with his sudden massive expansion of his story and all of the delays because people are ok with it. And I am but one voice in the wilderness saying that it is unacceptable and that he has not acted like a professional and I really wish people would stop making excuses for him. And I lose because nothing will change and a story that I loved was lost in one mans ego which was stroked by apologists willing to accept a less interesting and well developed world and a publisher wanting the millions that come from the books and the shows.

Yes, I am bitter.

That said, I greatly appreciate Brandon Sanderson and his approach to writing (so far) and JRK and her approach to Harry Potter and all the other authors (Robin Hobb, Jim Butcher come to mind) who are professional enough to tell their story like they said they would and in a timely fashion. I might not always like where they go with their worlds but I can appreciate that they don't jerk their fans around and support them by purchasing their books.

[Geralt]

ProfCrash, you say that you are bitter? I'm sorry it has come to that
It's just one man and a set of books.

Your bitterns only hurts you.

54 is old age. Of course I'm only a 30yo, so people don't take offence from a whippersnapper
Whether or not his age is a reason for delay in writing is debatable.
However being 66 and giving a middle finger to your fans is totally on the cranky grandpa spectrum lol But I understand he's offended.

[DiapDealer]

It's just one man and a set of books.

And there we have it. The "I love this author and his books sooo much that I'm willing to pretend they're relatively unimportant to me, so that those who don't pretend they're not emotionally invested in a story that they had such high hopes for (and have become increasingly disappointed in) seem petty and maybe slightly disturbed" technique.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And there we have it. The "I love this author and his books sooo much that I'm willing to pretend they're relatively unimportant to me, so that those who don't pretend they're not emotionally invested in a story that they had such high hopes for (and have become increasingly disappointed in) seem petty and maybe slightly disturbed" technique.

I am not willing to pretend nor am I pretending. Aren't you highly presumptuous here DD?
Only genre I read is fantasy and sci-fi, and believe me I have so much material to read without being hung up on one particular series.

I love ASOIAF, but at the same time I'm not obsessed with it. How come suddenly this is not a realistic stand, but somehow pretending? You lost me there

I understand people who are upset, but I also get why Martin was upset.
Being bitter about books is kinda weird to me, but it's not my problem. People deal with their issues in a manner they choose.

Don't be so condescending DD, especially toward my carefree attitude. I know you're really just jelly

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Geralt

I love ASOIAF, but at the same time I'm not obsessed with it. How come suddenly this is not a realistic stand, but somehow pretending? You lost me there

Because if you weren't a little-bit obsessed you wouldn't really feel the need to defend the author's practices or engage in your own speculation about his motivations. Just like I feel the need to speculate about them. You'd just enjoy the books and not give a damn what others thought about him (or the books), and I'd have put them down and moved on without saying a word.

We're all a bit obsessed with George and/or the books and/or they're place in the great genre cosmos or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Because if you weren't a little-bit obsessed you wouldn't really feel the need to defend the author's practices or engage in your own speculation about his motivations. Just like I feel the need to speculate about them. You'd just enjoy the books and not give a damn what others thought about him (or the books), and I'd have put them down and moved on without saying a word.

We're all a bit obsessed with George and/or the books and/or they're place in the great genre cosmos or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What? I can't have an opinion without being obsessed? Are you aware how ridiculous you sound?

And if you say we are all obsessed you are basically nullifying the meaning of the word, it stands for nothing then.

I'm speculating because I like to guess what makes people tick. Including GRRM. I don't particularly care to defend him, nor did I.

Btw, how come this discussion of a one man flipping a bird at some fans turned out to be about who and how I am?

[DiapDealer]

And if you say we are all obsessed you are basically nullifying the meaning of the word, it stands for nothing then.

I'm not saying we--as in everybody--are all obsessed." Just we few that are still keeping the thread alive when most others have gotten bored and moved on. And I don't mean to suggest that's a horrible thing, either.

Btw, how come this discussion of a one man flipping a bird at some fans turned out to be about who and how I am?

Mostly because your suggestion that people need to "stfu about it" came across as being awfully judgemental about who and how they are.

[Geralt]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not saying "we are all obsessed." Just we few that are still keeping the thread alive when most others have gotten bored and moved on.

Excuse me, I just saw this thing this morning. I'm not constantly present on MR nor do I check threads every day.