E-books to outsell print by 2018 says new report

[TCSimpson]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Pretty sure there won't be a gradual takeover in ebooks as with music, and it actually seemed pretty sudden to me with music.

But why? as fjtorres pointed out different demographics with ebooks than music. The majority of book buyers reads one or two a month and are adults able to and comfortable with paying the same prices for paper books. In fact many are happy to pay extra for the convenience.

The takeover with music wasn't sudden. MP3 was first standardized in 1991. For years, the underground pushed it and the industry refused to accept it. Then came Napster in '99 and everything went haywire. I still recall the old AOL filesharing chat rooms. The music industry refused to accept digital as a viable product, because like the print industry, they wanted to sell the hard copy for more money. (Never mind the fact that you might only want to buy one or two songs but were forced to purchase an entire album.) By the time they saw the revolt and how big technology had become, it was too late for brick and mortar stores. The coming of iTunes made it so much easier for artists who might not have made a living otherwise, to do so. It made it easier for a listener to choose their favorite songs and compile them in an easily handled medium. Sounds familiar? What the book industry has handled a little better, and it's mostly due to Amazon's push of the kindle, following Apple's example, is to try get in on the ebook market.

And I think it's a fallacy that most adult buyers of books are willing to dish out the same price or more for the convenience of an ebook. Most I know aren't. They believe, and rightfully so, that it is cheaper to produce an ebook than it is a print book. Cheaper storage involved, no worry about printing and back order etc etc. Sure, there are expenses, cover art, editing, marketing etc, but do those things justify having the ebook priced hired than the hard copy?

In the end, ALL the companies are running a business and looking to make money, regardless of how it affects the consumer. I mean, that is the point of business, to make money. In the end, it's the consumer who might suffer, as can be seen by the price fixing.

And of course the publishers have a right to protect their goods. But at the expense of the consumer being able to read what he already bought across the multiple devices he owns?

“Our authors and readers have been asking for this for a long time,” said president and publisher Tom Doherty. “They’re a technically sophisticated bunch, and DRM is a constant annoyance to them. It prevents them from using legitimately-purchased e-books in perfectly legal ways, like moving them from one kind of e-reader to another.” That was from Tor. I didn't make it up.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by conan50

Wow, taking things personal a bit much? ;-)
You were assuming in your quote about his lost sales that those multitude of stolen Butcher books were taken by people who would have actually bought the books instead--which I doubt. I think he is whining about lost sales he may never have gotten anyway. My comments are about him and the application of DRM :-)

??? I said nothing other than that your bias is completely uninteresting and merely shows that YOU don't like them. That was not, in fact, my quote at all.

(By coincidence, I happen to like his books. But I would and do jump to the defense of books that I don't like, as well. For instance, HERE. In other words, it is not personal. Well, the book itself isn't personal, but I take your vitriol personally, on principal.)

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

How much? Is this overall profit from increased sales or just saving the DRM fee? According to HarryT they (Tor) do have DRM on library books. I am pretty sure they could go another way than Overdrive, but choose not to. Perhaps I am wrong.

...

I am interested in the topic and would be grateful for a link or two saying how much more profit Tor is making by saving the Adobe Fee. Are most of their purchaser using epub? Do they make an equivalent amount by not using Amazon DRM?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Helen

22¢ per sale, according to this link: http://the-digital-reader.com/2011/0...obe-tax-today/

That is 22¢ less profit per sale, when the margin for books is apparently sending the publishers into (fake) anxiety attacks regardless.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by TCSimpson

The takeover with music wasn't sudden. MP3 was first standardized in 1991. For years, the underground pushed it and the industry refused to accept it. Then came Napster in '99 and everything went haywire. I still recall the old AOL filesharing chat rooms. The music industry refused to accept digital as a viable product, because like the print industry, they wanted to sell the hard copy for more money. (Never mind the fact that you might only want to buy one or two songs but were forced to purchase an entire album.) By the time they saw the revolt and how big technology had become, it was too late for brick and mortar stores. The coming of iTunes made it so much easier for artists who might not have made a living otherwise, to do so. It made it easier for a listener to choose their favorite songs and compile them in an easily handled medium. Sounds familiar? What the book industry has handled a little better, and it's mostly due to Amazon's push of the kindle, following Apple's example, is to try get in on the ebook market.

And I think it's a fallacy that most adult buyers of books are willing to dish out the same price or more for the convenience of an ebook. Most I know aren't. They believe, and rightfully so, that it is cheaper to produce an ebook than it is a print book. Cheaper storage involved, no worry about printing and back order etc etc. Sure, there are expenses, cover art, editing, marketing etc, but do those things justify having the ebook priced hired than the hard copy?

In the end, ALL the companies are running a business and looking to make money, regardless of how it affects the consumer. I mean, that is the point of business, to make money. In the end, it's the consumer who might suffer, as can be seen by the price fixing.

And of course the publishers have a right to protect their goods. But at the expense of the consumer being able to read what he already bought across the multiple devices he owns?

“Our authors and readers have been asking for this for a long time,” said president and publisher Tom Doherty. “They’re a technically sophisticated bunch, and DRM is a constant annoyance to them. It prevents them from using legitimately-purchased e-books in perfectly legal ways, like moving them from one kind of e-reader to another.” That was from Tor. I didn't make it up.

So how many ways is it necessary to read a book and across how many devices.
D
RM may be a constant annoyance to your friends, how would I know? My friends mostly don't know what DRM is. And I am afraid I don't enlighten them. Why rain on their happy parade of reading their ebooks on the device they bought them for. I mention that they could read them on a different device if they got the right app etc. and I get a why would I want to do that.

My technically inclined friends are the same and I have quite a few. They buy the book and read it. No playing around moving their books from device to device. These are young people with degrees and well paying jobs in IT. They show no signs of caring and might be inclined to tell me to p*** off if I was to try to bore the with the details. They have ereaders, Windows phones, Surface tablets etc. and spend little (no) time worrying about transferring the ebook around. Somewhat like myself I guess.

Of course different people, different concerns and obsessions. My obsession is reading the book, maybe spend a few hours, enjoy it and on to the next. Another one unfortunately is getting caught up in endless discussions with those that want to read the same book over and over ad infinitum on every device they own. Very silly of me I know.

Helen

[TCSimpson]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

So how many ways is it necessary to read a book and across how many devices.
D
RM may be a constant annoyance to your friends, how would I know?

Of course different people, different concerns and obsessions. My obsession is reading the book, maybe spend a few hours, enjoy it and on to the next. Another one unfortunately is getting caught up in endless discussions with those that want to read the same book over and over ad infinitum on every device they own. Very silly of me I know.

Helen

Where did I mention DRM as annoyance to my friends? I quoted TOR, the publisher, the imprint, AFTER they did a survey of their readers and authors, and I quote:

“Having been in direct contact with our readers, we were aware of how frustrated many of them were by DRM. Our authors had also expressed concerns at the restrictions imposed by the copyright coding applied to their ebooks. When both authors and readers are talking from the same page, it makes sense for the publishers to sit up, listen and take note—and we did!

We know, that our readers are earlier adapters of technology, the first in-line to experiment with new formats, new reading experiences and new devices. In part it’s the nature of the genre—a pushing of boundaries and imagination and it’s what we all love about the area. For us, we felt a strong sense that the reading experience for this tech-savvy, multi-device owning readership, was being inhibited by DRM leaving our readers unable to reasonably and legally transfer ebook files between all the devices they had. DRM was an irritant taking away the flexibility and their choice of reading device and format, the very things that made the ebook so desirable a format to begin with."

Who said anything about ad infinitum or reading the same book over and over. Let's say I bought a kindle, but for whatever reason, I now wish to try a Nook Color instead. So here's my kindle books, here's my Nook. I tend to buy books in bunches, many I haven't read yet. Let's say I have no idea how to remove DRM and want to read the books I ALREADY BOUGHT from kindle/Amazon, but now on my new Nook. Guess what? I can't. It would necessitate me going to PURCHASE those books all over again. OR taking my kindle, which I don't want to because I've already moved on to a NEW device.

[crossi]

A lot of people are clueless about DRM and don't care. Right up to the point when their device dies and they find all their books are unreadable on their shiny new device they bought because of how great it sounded in the ads. After all they are used to stuff like records, cds, DVDs ect just working no matter which company they buy their devices from. Myself I've got about $4000 invested in my ebooks and I don't much care for the thought that in order not to have to write off my investment I'll have to buy my inevitable replacement from the same company even if a different company is making a much better device. This kind of lock in also removes a lot of the incentive for the company to really care about improving their devices. Why should they care when they've got captive customers?

[jersysman]

:sigh:

Another thread that has morphed into DRM speak.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by crossi

Myself I've got about $4000 invested in my ebooks and I don't much care for the thought that in order not to have to write off my investment I'll have to buy my inevitable replacement from the same company even if a different company is making a much better device.

You certainly don't have to. Simply remove the DRM.

[Barcey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You certainly don't have to. Simply remove the DRM.

You do realize that circumventing DRM is illegal in some countries?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Barcey

You do realize that circumventing DRM is illegal in some countries?

Of course I do. Can you give me a single example of anyone ever being prosecuted, anywhere in the world, for removing DRM for personal use?

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

They're not sold to libraries without DRM. All books supplied by Overdrive have DRM.



Of course it matters to the publisher if libraries are giving away free books. It's called "piracy".

No, in Sweden overdrive is not used.

You assume that things must work exactly like today and then claim that libraries need DRM.

And no it is not piracy if they lend the book and trust the borrower and the publisher is OK with that.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Of course I do. Can you give me a single example of anyone ever being prosecuted, anywhere in the world, for removing DRM for personal use?

Can you give me an example of anybody anywhere that have been prosecuted for just downloading (not uploading) an ebook for personal use? I have actually never heard about that happening. So according to your logic that would be OK to do.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tompe

No, in Sweden overdrive is not used.

You assume that things must work exactly like today and then claim that libraries need DRM.

And no it is not piracy if they lend the book and trust the borrower and the publisher is OK with that.

Well, since we are discussing Tor books being available on OverDrive (with DRM), let me ask... whatever system Sweden uses, does it have Tor books in the catalog? If not, then I fail to see what you are attempting to say.

Unless you are sneakily agreeing with us, that Sweden doesn't use DRM in libraries, and thus none of the major worldwide publishers will do business with them, and thus the catalog is tiny.
(But you are right that libraries don't need DRM. If only anyone was arguing with you. )

Since, after all, most publishers are not OK with giving people free copies of the book under the guise of a library "loan".

If you have got a system for ensuring that borrowers cannot keep the book after the loan expires, but doesn't use DRM, I am sure we'd all like to hear it; keep in mind that any rights management system, encryption-based or not, fits the definition of "Digital Rights Management".

Originally Posted by tompe

Can you give me an example of anybody anywhere that have been prosecuted for just downloading (not uploading) an ebook for personal use? I have actually never heard about that happening. So according to your logic that would be OK to do.

Not OK, just perfectly doable. Since all HarryT was trying to say was that removing DRM is doable without prosecution, not that it is OK, the OK-ness of the matter must be judged by entirely other means, i.e. Fair Use.

Fair Use soothes my guilt over removing DRM on purchases, but not over downloading books from pirate sites. Hence removing the DRM is OK (because I consider it to be so) but downloading pirated books is not OK (again, because I consider it to be so).

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by TCSimpson

And I think it's a fallacy that most adult buyers of books are willing to dish out the same price or more for the convenience of an ebook.

I am not aware of anyone here expressing that fallacy. If you check out big publisher prices, you will see that, for the first year of so, they set eBook prices well below hardcover, and in the second and third year, often below paperback prices as well.

Now, personally, if I was going to buy a book, which I rarely do, I would indeed pick the eBook if it was equal to the price of the cheapest paper edition, or even if the eBook was a smiggen more. However, that's me, not most people. The most people situation is surely why the marketeers price the eBook lower.

Originally Posted by TCSimpson

I tend to buy books in bunches, many I haven't read yet. Let's say I have no idea how to remove DRM and want to read the books I ALREADY BOUGHT from kindle/Amazon, but now on my new Nook. Guess what? I can't. It would necessitate me going to PURCHASE those books all over again.

So you can afford to buy brand new books in bunches, and are getting them for less money than in the past (presuming you used to buy them shortly after publication). Good for you that you can support literature in this way, with no snark intended.

Originally Posted by TCSimpson

I quoted TOR, the publisher, the imprint, AFTER they did a survey of their readers and authors . . .

I wonder if the survey covered other Macmillan imprints. Even if it didn't, the bigger publishers must all be doing market research that touches on this.

Of course, Macmillan isn't going to publish that they also surveyed St. Martin's Press (another one of their imprints) readers and determined that DRM elimination wouldn't change their lack of brand loyalty. Macmillan would be unwise to do that because it would generate negative publicity on the internet.

[TCSimpson]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

I am not aware of anyone here expressing that fallacy. If you check out big publisher prices, you will see that, for the first year of so, they set eBook prices well below hardcover, and in the second and third year, often below paperback prices as well.

Now, personally, if I was going to buy a book, which I rarely do, I would indeed pick the eBook if it was equal to the price of the cheapest paper edition, or even if the eBook was a smiggen more. However, that's me, not most people. The most people situation is surely why the marketeers price the eBook lower.


I wonder if the survey covered other Macmillan imprints. Even if it didn't, the bigger publishers must all be doing market research that touches on this.

Of course, Macmillan isn't going to publish that they also surveyed St. Martin's Press (another one of their imprints) readers and determined that DRM elimination wouldn't change their lack of brand loyalty. Macmillan would be unwise to do that because it would generate negative publicity on the internet.

"The majority of book buyers reads one or two a month and are adults able to and comfortable with paying the same prices for paper books. In fact many are happy to pay extra for the convenience."

My response was to this person's quote that most adults are willing to pay extra for the convenience of ebooks. Extra as in above the price of paperbacks.


For the most part, BEFORE the whole DOJ decision, many ebooks were priced higher than their cheapest (massmarket) paperback counterparts. Some still are. http://www.amazon.com/Cross-My-Heart.../dp/B00BAXFAVK

Unless I missed it, ToR's stance wasn't on lack of brand loyalty but rather the expression of annoyance of their readers that when swapping devices, for whatever reason, DRM became an issue.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by TCSimpson

For the most part, BEFORE the whole DOJ decision, many ebooks were priced higher than their cheapest (massmarket) paperback counterparts. Some still are. http://www.amazon.com/Cross-My-Heart.../dp/B00BAXFAVK

According to the Barnes and Noble site, that mass market paperbook is available for pre-order and will not be released until September 30. Amazon is selling those low priced paperbacks through third party vendors that are likely selling import copies.

I do agree (if this is your opinion) that the current eBook price on your link, $14.99, is high for an author who seems to come out with a new book every 3-4 weeks.

J. K. Rowling/Robert Galbraith, who I'm sure puts in more work on each book, came out with a new one today for which Amazon is charging $25.20 for hardcover (from Amazon directly) and $9.99 for the eBook. This, of course, does fit my eBook-is-cheaper-for-the-first-couple-years thesis. Maybe both eBook prices have a little something to do with the Hachette dispute, since I'd think the reverse pricing ($9.99 for last year's Patterson, and $14.99 for today's J.K. Rowling) would make more marketing sense.