Amazon vs Hachette

[GtrsRGr8]

Always remember: there are two (at least) sides to every story.

We are hearing really only one side--Hachette's and the liberal, big-business haters in the mainstream media. Have we heard Amazon's side of the story? I haven't, but I would like to; I'm sure that things would look a whole lot different then.

[frahse]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

Since there are no facts, just rhetoric and no evidence, just accusations, it is kind of hard to not assume things.

------

Indeed, that has a certain ring to it.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by frahse

Indeed, that has a certain ring to it.

Of familiarity?
Of deja vu?

We've been here before. And seen the followup, too.

[Connallmac]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think you missed the point. The author never claimed that market forces don't apply to Diet Coke. But rather, that those market forces (that definitely do apply) aren't going to change the product itself. While I may not agree that the content and quality of books themselves may suffer as a result of this battle, I find the analogy quite apt. The market forces in this instance do have the potential to change the quality and the content of the product itself. Whether or not they will is another story. The big point is that this isn't simply a two-sided battle between retailer and supplier (as I was once willing to see it myself).

No, I did get that point, I just tend to disagree with it, eventually if you push a manufacturer hard enough on price, after they've cut everything else back to the bare minimums, they are going to have to cut the quality. Whether it's Diet Coke or books or widgets. I found it to be a very poor and ill thought out analogy.

I think the big thing to take away from this whole fight is wondering why the authors continue to do business with the Big 5 PH at all? It seems to me that they have done little to help authors and certainly quite a bit to make them worse off.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Sure they could have. No huge margins (the new ones on ebooks that they're so proud of) ... nothing for Amazon to take. Plus fat, sassy, and productive authors attracting other authors looking to get fat and sassy. Foresight wins the war. Not instant gratification.

Some authors have loyalty to a publisher, other authors jump from publisher to publisher going after who is going to give them the most money. It's not really all that different than consumers. Some have a lot of brand loyalty, others go with whatever is cheapest at that particular time and place. A publisher is never going to be able to compete with Amazon on pure price. Some authors well understand what a publisher brings to the game, others don't.

Like the weight loss commercials one sees on TV, for each successful story of an author making lots of money via Amazon, there are hundreds of authors who are not nearly as successful. Writing a quality book is only half the battle when it comes to being a successful author. You also have to get noticed by the book buying public. That's a lot harder. To a great extent, Amazon is like a vanity press.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by GtrsRGr8

Always remember: there are two (at least) sides to every story.

We are hearing really only one side--Hachette's and the liberal, big-business haters in the mainstream media. Have we heard Amazon's side of the story? I haven't, but I would like to; I'm sure that things would look a whole lot different then.

Well then, wouldn't it behoove Amazon to get their side of the story out? Could it be that their side of the story is that Hachette is totally correct about Amazon?

I don't have a problem with Amazon playing hardball, but when you play hardball, then it's pretty hard to claim the moral high road or expect sympathy. I suspect that is why Amazon's only public comment was basically, sure we are playing hardball, what of it? Hachette could have decided to play hardball back, and pulled their product from Amazon. I believe that Penguin did that to Amazon a number of years back. Instead they decided to take things public and get public opinion to put pressure on Amazon. So far, they have gotten public opinion on their side. We will see if it works or not.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

No, I did get that point, I just tend to disagree with it, eventually if you push a manufacturer hard enough on price, after they've cut everything else back to the bare minimums, they are going to have to cut the quality. Whether it's Diet Coke or books or widgets. I found it to be a very poor and ill thought out analogy.

I think the big thing to take away from this whole fight is wondering why the authors continue to do business with the Big 5 PH at all? It seems to me that they have done little to help authors and certainly quite a bit to make them worse off.

Publishers do provide a service. Most of them do a good job editing, provide a decent cover, provide feedback and a support mechanism. How much is that worth? Depends on the author and the editor. Some publishers are stepping up more often with advertising and they are learning to more prominently take advantage of putting their publishing mark where it can be noticed--that way for readers who do not want self-published, it becomes a branding value.

Publishers also handle formatting and uploading to several sites. Trust me, that can be a pain in the neck. There are more and more sites vying for our attention every day--subscription services, library uploading services, places like netgalley. Netgalley charges 300 dollars per book to be listed there. The publisher covers that if they choose to market a book there. Bookbub, an advertiser that actually has a large buying audience can charge 1000 dollars per ad. A publisher pays that if you have one.

There are some advantages and that cannot be overlooked. Each book--not just each author--has to have all those considerations weighed. The editor is doing the same thing on their end. They don't automatically take every book out of an author and publish it.

Publishing a book is a rather large effort in both time and money at some point. Thankfully there are multiple ways to achieve it, but the trad route is still a very viable and useful publishing mechanism for a lot of authors.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

. I believe that Penguin did that to Amazon a number of years back.
.

People forget that.
April through June 2010.
(Amazon wanted MFN, like Apple... They got it.)
Random House made a killing that spring: no agency, no Penguin...

Amazon sales were booming before, they kept on booming.

[Sydney's Mom]

I find all of this totally illogical. Everyone is ignoring price fixing because bad practices associated with a monopoly may occur. Is there any indication that if those bad practices occur, the DOJ would not be all over it? I am so against the Big Publishers. It used to be I went into the bookstore, and picked books based on their marketing agreements with the publishers. Now, I never shop in bookstores. I pick books based on bestseller lists, which contain some indie publications, and recommendations I see on the web, including here.

I know books aren't fungible. But I also know that I will never in my lifetime be able to read all the books I want to. If I can't ever read a Hachette book again, I will still have plenty to read.

Every other profession has undergone significant changes due to globalization and the financial crisis. Newspapers have folded one after the other. I currently read the Chicago Tribune digitally. I buy songs one-by-one--very few albums anymore. In the past decade, I have changed where my money goes based on overall changes in the economy (buying digital classes, borrowing digital library books). Things aren't going back. I am not buying the new bestseller at $14.99, because I haven't read the last bestseller yet.

I am an Amazon fan--I buy everything on Amazon except for yarn and groceries. I used to work 10 hour days and then rush around doing errands nights and weekends. Now, I work from home, and order things I need from Amazon. Well, not everything. I just redid our living room, bought a leather couch from Costco, and chairs and tables and lamps from Overstock. I did not set foot in a single furniture store. So I would resent having to pay the markup for the furniture stores. If you need the design help from furniture stores, then you need to pay the markup. If you need the book selection expertise of the big publishing houses, then pay the money. But I don't, and I will buy another book rather than read the latest JK Rowling. Heck, I haven't read the last one, yet.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

People forget that.
April through June 2010.
(Amazon wanted MFN, like Apple... They got it.)
Random House made a killing that spring: no agency, no Penguin...

Amazon sales were booming before, they kept on booming.

I'm pretty sure that what Penguin did had nothing to do with how Random House did as a publishing house. For one thing, only 150 Penguin titles were effected by the dispute. Penguin was very much a late comer to the ebooks market.

Basically, Penguin stopped providing ebook versions of their new books to Amazon and Amazon retaliated by pricing the new Penguin hardbacks at $9.99 rather than the normal price.

[Alfy]

Originally Posted by Sydney's Mom

I find all of this totally illogical. Everyone is ignoring price fixing because bad practices associated with a monopoly may occur. Is there any indication that if those bad practices occur, the DOJ would not be all over it? I am so against the Big Publishers. It used to be I went into the bookstore, and picked books based on their marketing agreements with the publishers. Now, I never shop in bookstores. I pick books based on bestseller lists, which contain some indie publications, and recommendations I see on the web, including here.

[...]

Every other profession has undergone significant changes due to globalization and the financial crisis. Newspapers have folded one after the other. I currently read the Chicago Tribune digitally. I buy songs one-by-one--very few albums anymore. In the past decade, I have changed where my money goes based on overall changes in the economy (buying digital classes, borrowing digital library books). Things aren't going back. I am not buying the new bestseller at $14.99, because I haven't read the last bestseller yet.

Well said. Yes, publishers actually provide an important service, but these big publishers in particular seem completely unable to adapt to the digital age. And all their maneuvers seem solely aimed at retaining an antiquated status quo, showing they have learned nothing of what happened to the music industry.

Personally, I would have no problems seeing them disappear for good, their business model is deleterious to both readers and authors (and alternatives, especially self-publishing with support from smaller, nimbler editors for a set fee rather than a percentage of revenue, shows great promise).

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Alfy

Personally, I would have no problems seeing them disappear for good, their business model is deleterious to both readers and authors (and alternatives, especially self-publishing with support from smaller, nimbler editors for a set fee rather than a percentage of revenue, shows great promise).

Percentage of revenue for the *rest of your life* and 70 years beyond.

Now that with ebooks it costs nothing extra to keep titles eternally available that is just absurd. Totally disproprotional.

[Waylander]

To be honest, there is not enough solid information on what is actually going on. We can hypothesise and theorise all we like, but nobody knows for sure what is really going on. I don't want publishers to disappear, but they really need to modify their terms with authors in order that they treat them fairly. It's rather ironic and frankly hypocritical that they are complaining about Amazon's bad practices when they are almost as culpable. I hope Hachette and Amazon sort themselves out, as I like the output from Orbit, and don't want to see the authors suffer for much longer.

[Alfy]

New article in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/bu...ooks.html?_r=0

Apparently, Hachette is "fighting for its life"... The only half tidbit of interesting information concerns the negotiations themselves, which might allegedly be about discounts on ebooks. Nothing much, but the NYT is turning into a bona fide propaganda machine.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by Alfy

Nothing much, but the NYT is turning into a bona fide propaganda machine.

Since you don't like the New York Times coverage, can you link to something on this in the Paris papers?