Amazon is destroying e-reader innovation

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Yeah I think so too, but I thought that this was clear from my post. Maybe not



Me. I'll go hide now...

I thought it was clear, hence my question.

If you say I just have great perception, you will probably anger a lot of people who know me, so let's not go there.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

Kindle has the least software problems *because* they are among the dumbest ereaders. If your ereader has very few choices it shouldn't have many problems. Except of course not being usable to those who don't care for the defaults.

I disagree with that. I ran a PRS-650 with Prs+. It was extrememely configurable and rarely crashed (if at all). Also I am using a Nook STR with rooted Android. It has crashed I think once in more than a year (and I think that was my fault). I have only turned it off a couple of times. The thing is un-crashable. So, no. You don't need to have dumbed-down software to have stability. It's a myth, possibly caused by comparing Kindles to Kobos.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I disagree with that. I ran a PRS-650 with Prs+. It was extrememely configurable and rarely crashed (if at all). Also I am using a Nook STR with rooted Android. It has crashed I think once in more than a year (and I think that was my fault). I have only turned it off a couple of times. The thing is un-crashable. So, no. You don't need to have dumbed-down software to have stability. It's a myth, possibly caused by comparing Kindles to Kobos.

I used PRS+ as well and didn't have many problems but that is not stock software. I do prefer Sony over Kindle even with stock though. Sony always seemed to do good hardware and software but it was expensive.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I disagree with that. I ran a PRS-650 with Prs+. It was extrememely configurable and rarely crashed (if at all). Also I am using a Nook STR with rooted Android. It has crashed I think once in more than a year (and I think that was my fault). I have only turned it off a couple of times. The thing is un-crashable. So, no. You don't need to have dumbed-down software to have stability. It's a myth, possibly caused by comparing Kindles to Kobos.

Oh good god, you are sitting here bitching about lack of choices when all you do is root whatever machine you do buy to suit your own needs!

If that's the case, I don't understand why you are bitching in the first place!

The majority of us are happy with what we buy right out of the box and have zero interest in rooting or replacing anything. The world does not revolve around what you tech geeks do or want.

Nor do we care about what they have or are doing outside of the USA since it doesn't apply to us.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Rizla

There's a lot of talk here that e-reader(s) available in America are adequate for reading and that the tech is perfect for the job. But what if I want to read an A4 pdf on e-ink? Can't do it, not with an American e-reader. But I can do it with a large-format European / Asian e-reader.

The extremely limited choice of e-readers in America might satisfy your needs, but they don't satisfy mine.

In addition, I want to use a large e-ink screen to double as a computer monitor. European tech is approaching that. It's just a question of software. In America, nada. America has fallen behind. Amazon's dominance has stamped out progress.

My argument is not that the current crop of US e-ink readers is perfect for all uses, but rather has to do with the nature of innovation, and whether Amazon killed it.

To me, the most important thing about innovation is that it's not obvious. It isn't "more of the same." An e-ink reader for A4 or US letter size PDFs isn't an innovation, it's an obvious application of the technology. It's also proven to be an abject failure in the US market. The economics just haven't been there to produce one at a price people are willing to pay.

The large screen e-ink reader isn't an innovation Amazon killed, it's just a product no one was able to make economically viable in the US.

To me, things like syncing the same book across different devices, text to speech, buying books from the device with built-in 3G or Wi-Fi were innovations. So is audiobook syncing.

Front lighting was an innovation, so were touch screens. Amazon introduced or adopted most of the innovations, too.

In the end, though, both Amazon and Nook ended up focusing most of their resources on LCD tablets because every company has limited resources and they were bigger markets.

The simple fact that a company is not producing the device you, or any other specific buyer, may want does not mean they are killing innovation. It just means their priorities are different from yours.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Rizla

The latter. But then the same could be said for all e-readers in the early stages of their development. And just because my needs are niche doesn't mean it shouldn't be fulfilled. It's being fulfilled in Europe, so why not in America? Again, this is the point I made in the OP. Amazon's dominance is reducing choice.

There were more choices in America also, but people chose Amazon and that's the big reason the other choices went away. Kindle machines may be "dumb" machines and their displaying of books may be "terrible," etc., etc., but for some reason they sell. I realize a big part of that is Amazon's infrastructure. That infrastructure is why Kindle readers get a lot of my use now (besides, the fact that they default to darker fonts). They just work ... syncing across devices works with Amazon/Kindle (like it never did with the Nook), loading personal documents and sending news articles to my Kindle also work. These may not be Kindle features, per se, but they definitely enhance the Kindle device.

With desktops there are power users, or gamers, and people who just want the computer to get online, read email, watch Youtube, etc. While the power users may have a much more capable computer, they're vastly outnumbered by the those who don't care. Who are you going to market to?

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Kindle's are already among the dumbest e-readers around. The margin settings are useless, they only have six fonts, and the sizes below 3 or above 6 are almost unusable, except for people with stellar eyesight or the near-blind ones. If you need a size bigger than 6, you have a serious problem...

Absolutely agree on this. The only two font sizes I use are 3 and 4 -- the one is just a little too small for me and the other is too big. So, depending on the lighting, I'll go back and forth. I wish there was something in the middle of these two sizes. I don't understand the tiny fonts -- but I actually know people who use those fonts -- but the huge fonts? Who wants two or three words per page? I totally don't get those. And those wide, and wider margins? Why?

Originally Posted by Katsunami

However, at the same time, the Kindle's are also the ones with that have the least software problems, and are among the best (maybe the best) supported by Calibre; you can set your own page counts, conversion to AZW is about perfect, and all of the Kindle's features work without any jacking around.

That's been my experience also.

Originally Posted by Katsunami

That cannot be said for Kobo's "we want our own format toohoo!" KEPUB. Both the EPUB and KEPUB renderers have one or more problems that I don't care for; either some features of the reader don't work (EPUB), or it renders in a way I don't like, wasting space in headers and footers (KEPUB).

In the end, if I compare e-readers, the Kindle is the best of the worst. The really good readers with loads of options are only available for tablets, which is the reason why I'd really *REALLY* like an Android e-ink tablet.

My experience with Nook and its book formatting was good -- until I started downloading public domain books. Some were fine -- some had huge margins or fonts, etc. Calibre has helped me out a lot here also. (Though I did read one of these books on my Sony T2 and used the Crop feature -- which worked great.) One of my ePub issues (and Mobi) are fiction books with spaces between paragraphs. Really annoying when there are a lot of short dialogue paragraphs. Calibre is great at fixing those books ...

Sorry to ramble. Final point. Kindles are simple and, as far as I can tell, most of the folks who use e-Ink eReaders in the U.S. like them that way.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

In the end, though, both Amazon and Nook ended up focusing most of their resources on LCD tablets because every company has limited resources and they were bigger markets.

...and because tablets (and cellphones) are the way to reach casual/social readers (who only read a few books a year and can't justify $50-100 on a device solely for that) and fence sitters, who aren't even sure they like ebooks.

Both are reasons why the Kindle for Samsung app is so significant: there's a lot of Samsung mobile devices out there and if even a tiny fraction try it and like it, the result will be more significant (and profitable) than engineering a superduper eink reader that might sell 100k units at $300.

The last time we saw any credible sales volume numbers circa 2012, Sony had racked up 140,000 units across europe for a year and Pocketbook was somewhat above 100,000 worldwide. Pocketbook has likely grown a lot since they are apparently big in Russia and other eastern europe markets and they have been aggressively expanding their offerings. I have seen no evidence of any other hardware only vendor going higher than 100k per year. (I'd love to see new numbers but nobody is bragging.)

Amazon, by contrast, sells Kindles literally by the millions. While they've likely dropped some from their peak of a million a month in late 2012 (again: no bragging) that is still an order of magnitude or two higher than the hardware-only guys. The biggest hardware number I've seen lately was the Aura HD "limited edition" rumored production run of 360K.

Those tired 6inchers seem to move well enough to keep ebook sales growing, which is what the walled garden vendors really need. Ultimately, new features or models have to sell enough to justify the R&D and certification/localization costs, draw in a different kind of customer, and/or sell more or different kinds of ebooks for the walled garden gang to be interested. All apply to tablets, few if any apply to large format eink. For now.

Things change.
We might see meaningful innovation in the next year or so.
Maybe from eink, probably from Liquavista. Which is owned by, ahem, Amazon.

As the ancient greeks warned, "be careful what you ask for"...
The next dedicated reader innovation might be big and juicy, but Amazon exclusive.

[Canuck_in_Japan]

Just out of curiosity, what are the sources for that million a month claim? That seems pretty high. Game consoles only sell around 250k per month.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Canuck_in_Japan

Just out of curiosity, what are the sources for that million a month claim? That seems pretty high. Game consoles only sell around 250k per month.

Amazon itself, Nov-Dec 2011, as part of their brags over the Fire launch.
Those were peak numbers.
(The rumor mill out of Taiwan had them pegged at 8-10 million for the year. Projections for 2012 had them at 14M. But that was before B&N's issues hit the news...)

Oh, and consoles do much more than 250k a month. That has been the XBOX 360 floor. They are as seasonal as the walled garden ereaders, peaking at 1.5-2.4M in december for the US alone. With a similar amount for the rest of the (non-Japan) world. Sony and Nintendo are similarly seasonal. Even the lemony fresh Wii U showed a noticeable spike in dec sales.

XMAS 2011 was a real good for consumer electronics. Here's the console numbers:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com...ales-analysts/

2012 wasn't bad, either:
http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/10/de...nth-at-retail/

2013, being a launch year, was weird, though.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/01/...es-in-december

Edit: Huh, I misremembered. AMAZON was bragging of a million Kindles a *week* for three weeks.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/15/tech..._kindle_sales/

As I said, 2011 was a vintage year.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

Front lighting was an innovation, so were touch screens. Amazon introduced or adopted most of the innovations, too.

Amazon introduced neither of those innovations. Sony did both before Amazon, and probably others did it before Sony.

Originally Posted by Lemurion

The large screen e-ink reader isn't an innovation Amazon killed, it's just a product no one was able to make economically viable in the US.

And yet we are seeing large screen e-ink readers outside of the US. Why is that? I argue that it is because the US market is hard to penetrate because it is dominated by Amazon.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Amazon introduced neither of those innovations. Sony did both before Amazon, and probably others did it before Sony.

Yes, Sony introduced those innovations, at least to the US ereader market; Amazon merely adopted them. Amazon's innovations were things like Whispersync and on-device purchasing.

However, both support the point that rather than killing innovation, Amazon's track record is one of supporting innovation.

Originally Posted by Rizla

And yet we are seeing large screen e-ink readers outside of the US. Why is that? I argue that it is because the US market is hard to penetrate because it is dominated by Amazon.

Sure, Amazon dominates the US e-ink market, and that does make it hard for other companies to penetrate. Unfortunately, that does not support the contention that Amazon's dominance is the reason why large-screen e-ink readers have not penetrated the US market.

The counterexample is the Kindle DX. Amazon introduced its own large screen e-ink reader in 2009, reintroduced it in 2013, and finally withdrew it in 2014. Amazon has been ideally placed to take advantage of the market for large-screen e-ink readers, because they already had one.

We can discuss the reasons why there are no viable large-screen e-ink readers currently available in the US, but to ascribe that lack to Amazon stifling innovation is nonsensical.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Printing presses are not going to disappear, but what would happen if E-Ink folded up its tent and went away? They're pretty much the only source for e-ink displays.

Nope, the people who do the screens for the Trekstor Pyrus devices (Guangzhou OED) are of an equivalent quality.

I'm assuming more will show up if e-ink disappears and stops suing anyone with similar tech.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by ingmar

Not in Europe. To give an example, in Germany the PW2 costs 129 € (all taxes included) while the PB Touch Lux Mk. 2 goes for ~108 €. I got mine for under 100, but that was a special offer.

I understand things may be different in the US, but hey, welcome to the club -- usually it's the other way round, i.e. things not available world wide (at reasonable prices).

From what I can tell, the PW2 is around 180-200 € here (non-sponsored WiFi-only version) depending on the shop, while the Touch Lux 2 is around 145-155 €. So, yeah, the Kindles aren't exactly cheap here.

And it's not like our shops are just selling them at exorbitant prices - Amazon doesn't sell sponsored versions to us so buying the cheaper, WiFi-only PW2 directly from Amazon.com for me would be $193.74 (including shipping, customs + VAT).

[HarryT]

Rizla, what do you mean when you say that "my needs are being fulfilled in Europe, but not in America"? What is it that you're unable to buy in the US that can be bought in Europe?