Unutterably Silly Steve Jordan test-drives the VentureOne

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The Smart car is like a canoe. A wonderful design for a Canadian stream, but not particularly practical for Lake Superior. If you limit it to small, slow streets, a la small German or other old European town streets, it's great. You put it on a 120 KPH freeway, it's a deathtrap. And in Texas, at least, freeway driving is necessary, not a luxury.

I don't know about the US, but Europe has EuroNCAP, a crash assessment regime. The Smart has been measured by this, and not done too badly. There are league tables on the site, that are useful for relative comparisons. In fact, the old car I drive is rated worse than the Smart, simply because it is old. Often a smaller newer car can, and is, rated better than older larger cars. Design is an amazing thing.

I also see them quite regularly on the M3 (Motorway/"freeway" into London), usually overtaking me!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Most households have two cars used primarily for commuting, not one. In addition, Murphy's law will bite at the worst possible moment. (I need car 'X', but it's at home. So I have to go home, get car 'X', come back to do the job car 'X' is needed for, then go back home. Or spouse/SO has the car I need, same juggle. Or both I and my spouse and SO need the same car at the same time...) What price is my time worth?

I don't know... is your time worth paying $25,000 for a vehicle that you'll use to its full purpose maybe 2-3 times a year, versus paying $17,000 for a vehicle you'll use to its full purpose 98% of the year, plus an extra $200 or so for 2-3 vehicle rentals? If that math works for you, then by all means, spend the extra $7,800 for the big vehicle. (After all, the payment is spread out over 5 years... you'll hardly miss that cash...)

These numbers, BTW, are not pulled "out of a hat"... they are based on 2000 dollars and vehicle costs, and were exactly the numbers I faced when shopping for my car.

You know, it's entirely possible that a rouge meteor could hit the Atlantic Ocean and cause a giant tsunami... I'd better buy a boat to live in. The "Murphy's law" bit is just an excuse for bad planning and/or not accepting that, occasionally, one gets caught unprepared. Sometimes you just have to say, "What the ****"... I don't have a problem putting something off if it is not convenient to do so right now, but that's something that a lot of Americans don't like to have to settle for. In the future, however, I suspect that Americans will have to start settling for a lot of things that they'd rather not, which is why we find ourselves discussing Smart cars in the first place.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

There is always a market for single purpose tools. But there is a bigger, more vibrant market for multifunction tools. (Ebooks are a very niche market. But I love 'em!)

Sure... but ask any mechanic if he'd rather have an adjustable wrench, or a 3/4" box wrench, to turn a 3/4" nut... or a Swiss army knife instead of a full-handled screwdriver. He'll tell you that the specialized tool will outperform the multi-tool every time. That's why the best mechanics have the biggest tool boxes. (Insert sexist comment here.)

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

How many times have you rented a U-Haul? My average checkout time is 45-1 hour. That's not use time, that's the time it takes to get the U-Haul. And where do I leave my other car? At the U-haul shop? I have to get there first. If I pull a trailer, there's the hitch setup time. (and backing up with a trailer, extra driving headaches, ect.)

As I indicated above, about 2-3 times a year. And versus the almost $8,000 savings for not owning my own truck... I'll take a few hours' inconvenience every time. And I'm pretty sure that if more Americans did that math, there'd be a lot more small cars on the road today.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

It also may maim/kill them. I don't see those costs in the calculation. If I seem thin-skinned about this, I have a 2nd cousin about my age. He has been a quadraplegic for 18 years from a Suzuki Samari rollover. (He didn't know that they were so dangerous when he bought it. It looks economical and fun...)

I can relate, I've lost loved ones in auto accidents, too. But without challenging you, I can only say that that's one vehicle: Different cars have different safety aspects; and small cars aren't as "dangerous" as they're depicted, nor are trucks as "safe." Always be mindful of the quality and safety of your ride. You might find that some cars like the Smart are safer than you'd imagine.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The Smart car is like a canoe. A wonderful design for a Canadian stream, but not particularly practical for Lake Superior. If you limit it to small, slow streets, a la small German or other old European town streets, it's great. You put it on a 120 KPH freeway, it's a deathtrap. And in Texas, at least, freeway driving is necessary, not a luxury.

How about if you live and work in Dallas? You can conceivably drive from home to work without touching the highway. And a lot of city dwellers are in exactly that situation... not everybody commutes on Lake Superior. I never said the Smart was the best highway car, especially if you are surrounded by lunatics that drive 20 MPH over the limit. (Being a DC resident, I can relate to that, too.)

I reiterate... it's not for everyone. It may well not be for you. But it is well-suited for a LOT of people. And if most of those lot drove a Smart, we could be talking about significant fuel savings and less pollution in America. Again, what's wrong with that?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I don't know... is your time worth paying $25,000 for a vehicle that you'll use to its full purpose maybe 2-3 times a year, versus paying $17,000 for a vehicle you'll use to its full purpose 98% of the year, plus an extra $200 or so for 2-3 vehicle rentals? If that math works for you, then by all means, spend the extra $7,800 for the big vehicle. (After all, the payment is spread out over 5 years... you'll hardly miss that cash...)

These numbers, BTW, are not pulled "out of a hat"... they are based on 2000 dollars and vehicle costs, and were exactly the numbers I faced when shopping for my car.

I bluntly don't agree with your economics. In 2000, a top of the line stretch P/U cost that. A bottom of the line non-stretch (2 seater) P/U could be had here in Texas for around $10,000 less. I bought (in 2001) a 2001 PT cruiser at $19,000 (and overpaid). Furthermore, I get at least 8 years out of a car. My PT Cruiser won't handle 4'x'8' plywood sheets, but will handle 8 foot 4"x4"s. (the passenger seat folds down and the rear seat both folds down and is easily removeable.) So instead of $8,000 over 5 years, we're talking $2,000 over 8 years, or $250 a year. The Cruiser handles 90 pct of my u-haul needs. even at a 17 MPG differential, the cost (at $3 a gallon) of gas is still cheaper than buying a Starbuck every day at work. (I don't drink coffee)

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You know, it's entirely possible that a rouge meteor could hit the Atlantic Ocean and cause a giant tsunami... I'd better buy a boat to live in. The "Murphy's law" bit is just an excuse for bad planning and/or not accepting that, occasionally, one gets caught unprepared. Sometimes you just have to say, "What the ****"... I don't have a problem putting something off if it is not convenient to do so right now, but that's something that a lot of Americans don't like to have to settle for. In the future, however, I suspect that Americans will have to start settling for a lot of things that they'd rather not, which is why we find ourselves discussing Smart cars in the first place.

I disagree velhemently with your evaluation. The American people won't settle for limitations. They'll invent their way out of them. They always have, and always will. They don't tolerate being to told to do without.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Sure... but ask any mechanic if he'd rather have an adjustable wrench, or a 3/4" box wrench, to turn a 3/4" nut... or a Swiss army knife instead of a full-handled screwdriver. He'll tell you that the specialized tool will outperform the multi-tool every time. That's why the best mechanics have the biggest tool boxes. (Insert sexist comment here.).

And all of those tools are readily at hand, almost instantly swappable. If the mechanics had to wait 30 minite for every tool change, you'd see a completely different tool usage.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

As I indicated above, about 2-3 times a year. And versus the almost $8,000 savings for not owning my own truck... I'll take a few hours' inconvenience every time. And I'm pretty sure that if more Americans did that math, there'd be a lot more small cars on the road today.



I can relate, I've lost loved ones in auto accidents, too. But without challenging you, I can only say that that's one vehicle: Different cars have different safety aspects; and small cars aren't as "dangerous" as they're depicted, nor are trucks as "safe." Always be mindful of the quality and safety of your ride. You might find that some cars like the Smart are safer than you'd imagine.

I'm concerned about the Smart individually. I have no problem with, say, The Honda Civic. I judge on a car-by-car basis.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

How about if you live and work in Dallas? You can conceivably drive from home to work without touching the highway. And a lot of city dwellers are in exactly that situation... not everybody commutes on Lake Superior. I never said the Smart was the best highway car, especially if you are surrounded by lunatics that drive 20 MPH over the limit. (Being a DC resident, I can relate to that, too.)

I reiterate... it's not for everyone. It may well not be for you. But it is well-suited for a LOT of people. And if most of those lot drove a Smart, we could be talking about significant fuel savings and less pollution in America. Again, what's wrong with that?

You could conceivable live in Dallas a commute to work without using a freeway. I do, occasionally. But with the job flux of today, I wouldn't want to make an 8 year bet on it. Shucks, you could ever live in Dallas without a car, but it'd be a real limited lifestyle. (We call those lunatics slowpokes in Texas.)

If people make individual choices on their own, without coercion, fine. If somebody decides to make the choices for them, without their consent. then - evil, evil.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I bluntly don't agree with your economics. In 2000, a top of the line stretch P/U cost that. A bottom of the line non-stretch (2 seater) P/U could be had here in Texas for around $10,000 less. I bought (in 2001) a 2001 PT cruiser at $19,000 (and overpaid). Furthermore, I get at least 8 years out of a car. My PT Cruiser won't handle 4'x'8' plywood sheets, but will handle 8 foot 4"x4"s. (the passenger seat folds down and the rear seat both folds down and is easily removeable.) So instead of $8,000 over 5 years, we're talking $2,000 over 8 years, or $250 a year. The Cruiser handles 90 pct of my u-haul needs. even at a 17 MPG differential, the cost (at $3 a gallon) of gas is still cheaper than buying a Starbuck every day at work. (I don't drink coffee)

Actually, I'd equate a PT Cruiser (which I considered buying once, myself) as more of an economy vehicle than a big hauler... closer to my hatchback, which will haul comparable loads as your Cruiser. So try comparing your Cruiser to a $25,000 truck, and you still have about a $6,000 difference in cost. (BTW, I expect to get about 15 years out of my Hyundai, bought at $17,000, so if it's just cost over time you're computing, it still beats out any truck purchase.)

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I disagree velhemently with your evaluation. The American people won't settle for limitations. They'll invent their way out of them. They always have, and always will. They don't tolerate being to told to do without.

Yes... we avoided inventing better cars for 30 years, and instead we invented an ongoing war over oil in foreign lands. And as we get more oil-strapped, we'll just keep inventing better arms. Damned clever, us Americans. Maybe we could learn to tolerate a bit more, and kill a bit less. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I'm concerned about the Smart individually. I have no problem with, say, The Honda Civic. I judge on a car-by-car basis.

As I said, no one's forcing you personally to drive a Smart specifically. The point is, an electric vehicle may be able to satisfy 95% or more of your driving needs, and save you money besides, which is why I'd think most people, seeing this, would be willing to consider buying an electric car. If Honda puts out an electric Civic that you like, by all means, pick one up. (I watch them closely for future purchases myself.)

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

If people make individual choices on their own, without coercion, fine. If somebody decides to make the choices for them, without their consent. then - evil, evil.

And I do understand that this, indeed, is the real crux of your concern. I see evils Americans put up with, every day, thinking that they are not being coerced into them, that it is their choice. I expect the number of evils to increase, and for most Americans to not recognize them for what they are, and fall right in step. I prefer to see my evils coming, and decide which ones we must accept, and which we must resist.

If putting up with a bit of additional inconvenience by accepting an electric car is an evil, I'll take it any day over the evils we--and our children's children--will have to deal with otherwise.

[vivaldirules]

Stop it! Stop it, I say! Behave like children or I'll have to slap you about!

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Oh, I'm sorry... was I supposed to taunt Ralph mercilessly, then hit him with the blue one, next to the fish?

[vivaldirules]

Yes. Then he was to do the same to you. Only fair, you know.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Yes. Then he was to do the same to you. Only fair, you know.

I don't look good in blue.....(I'm so-so in fish.)

[LazyScot]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Oh, I'm sorry... was I supposed to taunt Ralph mercilessly, then hit him with the blue one, next to the fish?

Two grown people hitting one another with a fish.... The Python Thread is over here...

[nekokami]

The Smart Car looks like it could meet my needs just fine... though I'm currently considering a moped, actually. The majority of my driving is a 7 mile commute, with only one bit that goes at 50mph for a mile or so, the rest on hilly country roads with a top speed of 30mph, until I get to campus, at which point the speed limit drops to 25. We have another car, but I doubt I'd need it 90+% of the time. Once I'm on campus, I usually walk or use my bike, anyway.

RSE, I respect your need for other choices, and your right to make choices that match your needs. But (and I know this is very hard for Texans to believe), not everyone lives in Texas, and deals with Texan geography and roads every day. Some of us can quite reasonably make other choices, and I think if we could all accept that, we'd start to see other choices on the market. From where I sit, the "Everything must be bigger!" culture is denying me choices, and making my few choices more expensive, and I don't think it's just a matter of what people (Americans) would honestly prefer, given free range of options and honest information. It's firmly in the interest of certain parties to keep selling large, fuel-inefficient vehicles, whether we all need them or not. Again, this situation may be meeting your needs perfectly, and I'm not out to deny you choice, but I am having a very hard time meeting my needs.

Your point about safety, however, is well-taken, and that is something I check before any vehicle purchase. One of the things that impressed me about the V-One was the steel frame surrounding the cabin. I'm indifferent to motorcycles in general, but the economy of them does attract me, if my safety and weather needs could be addressed.

[montsnmags]

Originally Posted by nekokami

...
One of the things that impressed me about the V-One was the steel frame surrounding the cabin. I'm indifferent to motorcycles in general, but the economy of them does attract me, if my safety and weather needs could be addressed.

Not that an accident involving going from 70mph (113km/h) to zero in an instant in any car would likely leave you in any condition other than something that looks like it would smear nicely together with butter on warm toast, but here's a video that shows the rigidity of the "cockpit" of the SMART fourtwo and another small car:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/10/t...t-crash-video/

I'm not arguing the relative safety of the vehicle, but merely expressing how impressed I am at the strength of all modern cars.

Cheers,
Marc (Who prefers Fifth Gear to Top Gear - Tiff is a legend, Vicki has the best laugh while hammering a car to scary extremes, Jason is a great, objective driver, and Tom is hilarious without being arrogant ([cough!]Jeremy Clarkson[cough!])

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by nekokami

The Smart Car looks like it could meet my needs just fine... though I'm currently considering a moped, actually. The majority of my driving is a 7 mile commute, with only one bit that goes at 50mph for a mile or so, the rest on hilly country roads with a top speed of 30mph, until I get to campus, at which point the speed limit drops to 25. We have another car, but I doubt I'd need it 90+% of the time. Once I'm on campus, I usually walk or use my bike, anyway.

RSE, I respect your need for other choices, and your right to make choices that match your needs. But (and I know this is very hard for Texans to believe), not everyone lives in Texas, and deals with Texan geography and roads every day. Some of us can quite reasonably make other choices, and I think if we could all accept that, we'd start to see other choices on the market. From where I sit, the "Everything must be bigger!" culture is denying me choices, and making my few choices more expensive, and I don't think it's just a matter of what people (Americans) would honestly prefer, given free range of options and honest information. It's firmly in the interest of certain parties to keep selling large, fuel-inefficient vehicles, whether we all need them or not. Again, this situation may be meeting your needs perfectly, and I'm not out to deny you choice, but I am having a very hard time meeting my needs.

Your point about safety, however, is well-taken, and that is something I check before any vehicle purchase. One of the things that impressed me about the V-One was the steel frame surrounding the cabin. I'm indifferent to motorcycles in general, but the economy of them does attract me, if my safety and weather needs could be addressed.

Neko-chan, you might look at the Aptera, which (hopefully) will become available in California in a few months. The safest motorcycle (sic) ever designed (to date), and electric, to boot.

Sorry to be testy, but as a Texan, I've been at the receiving end of dikta from well-meaning urbanites who have had no clue about Texas conditions and culture for all my life (50+) years. And if you disagree, you're treated as an ignorant child, who really should just listen to his/her betters. It's the same attitude that brought forth the term "Ugly American" in many foreign countries. And we can't even yell "Yankee, go home!" here....I'm afraid I've grown rather thin-skinned about the attitude, "if only you'd do things our way the world would be a much better place." I respond "prove it!", and then things get lively...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Sorry to be testy, but as a Texan, I've been at the receiving end of dikta from well-meaning urbanites who have had no clue about Texas conditions and culture for all my life (50+) years...

So... it's been pret' much a century-and-a-half that you've been threatening it... when you guys gonna just up and secede already?...

Oh, and if you leave the urbanites behind, I got dibs on Austin...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by nekokami

The Smart Car looks like it could meet my needs just fine... though I'm currently considering a moped, actually. The majority of my driving is a 7 mile commute, with only one bit that goes at 50mph for a mile or so, the rest on hilly country roads with a top speed of 30mph, until I get to campus, at which point the speed limit drops to 25. We have another car, but I doubt I'd need it 90+% of the time. Once I'm on campus, I usually walk or use my bike, anyway.

I'm hip: Right now, my commute is a 2-mile trip to the light rail station. My car doesn't get serious use until the weekend. My wife and I could easily do with just one car and one short-distance vehicle... and I may eventually start biking to the station, if I don't get a small electric (not to save that tiny bit of money, but just to be that much cleaner...).

[Slite]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm hip: Right now, my commute is a 2-mile trip to the light rail station. My car doesn't get serious use until the weekend. My wife and I could easily do with just one car and one short-distance vehicle... and I may eventually start biking to the station, if I don't get a small electric (not to save that tiny bit of money, but just to be that much cleaner...).

And maybe just a teensy, wee bit 'cause it would be FUN!!!????