just because you have written a book does not make you an author

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by moonshot

Most professions have a training period and a learning curve and so it should be with anyone who puts pen to paper and then uploaded it to Amazon and uses the word author in the given sense.

In the US, there are very few professions that are required by law to have any sort of minimum standards, except for the legal and medical professions and some construction trades jobs. I've been a programmer for over 30 years, and I've never once taken any sort of tests to get "certified".

A lot of self-published authors are in writers groups, and discuss their works and have multiple readers before they upload their books, and it's not clear to me that this is all that much different from having an editor from a publisher. Publishers have a limited number of slots available in their publishing cycle, and just because someone's book doesn't meet the publishers' needs for one of those slots, doesn't mean that the book isn't worth publishing.

[Glorfindel]

@OP: You can find the stupidest of books in hard cover format too...

[moonshot]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Yes, it is. Few people will purchase a book completely at random, assuming it must be good. People use various techniques to determine if they are likely to enjoy a book.

Can you show evidence for this ?

[Glorfindel]

Originally Posted by moonshot

Can you show evidence for this ?

sure, I do this

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by moonshot

My original point was that there should be some way to separate the person who writes for a living from those that write as a 'hobby'.

By that definition e. g. Kafka never was an author.
It was clearly against his last will, that his works were published and made publicly accessible.

As for the rest, see HarryT's explanation of protected occupation (thanks Harry, I lacked the proper English term) ; since none of the artistic occupations (and a bunch of non-artistic ones) aren't protected. What now?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by moonshot

Can you show evidence for this ?

Go to a bookshop near you. Stand in it and watch the people buying books. Count how many walk in, blindfold themselves and pick a book at random from the shelves (tip: the total will be zero).

[moonshot]

I guess I do not have much support here being this is a site for the 'mobile' reader and some may be 'authors' of one sort or another.

I am new the e reader having just purchased one this year. And although the machine itself is fine to read from, I do find the Amazon and Kobo sites a bit of a mess, mixing e books by the 'professional author with the 'hobby' writer. Maybe the 'hobby' writers books should carry an Amazon/Kobo warning; these books have not been proof read, spelled checked or grammar and punctuation checked by an independent body; unless of course they have or they are free.

At least with the vanity press the author had to have a bit of confidence in his work before paying to have it in print.

[moonshot]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Go to a bookshop near you. Stand in it and watch the people buying books. Count how many walk in, blindfold themselves and pick a book at random from the shelves (tip: the total will be zero).

so the answer is no. I thought not.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by moonshot

so the answer is no. I thought not.

OK. If you want to believe that people buy books at random/troll outrageously,feel free. I know I won't be reading any more of your posts.

[QuantumIguana]

Surely if the phenomenon of people grabbing a book at random, assuming that just because it was published it must be good was commonplace, there would be some evidence of this. If people assumed that a book must be good because it was published, the concept of a "bad book" would be nonsensical. If people read books at random, then book critics, reviews and awards would be pointless. Why read a review if you're just going to grab a book at random? Just walk into any bookstore and count how many people purchase a random book. You'll wait a long time.

[DesignSmithery]

This type of thing exists in every creative art. Film, music, etc.

I'm a comic book junkie and there is a huge market of indie comics out there, especially thanks to the Internet. As a comic fan that's great because there are tons of writers and artists deemed not good enough by the established publishers to be worth publishing who are, in fact, self-publishing and making a good living. Some even end up having their indie comics optioned as films (Cowboys vs. Aliens, anyone?).

That being said, the flip-side exists as well. There are literally thousands of comics out there that are cringe worthy and, some would argue, not worth the bandwidth they take up. Like others have pointed out though, no officially sanctioned title would stop those folks from producing their work. Creative folks don't produce because it's a job, they do so because they love it, it's their passion and they will do it with or without an arbitrary title.

Telling someone they are not an official such and such may deter some, but most would tell you where you could stick that and continue about their business.

I get your point, I have bought ebooks I regretted buying. That said, I've purchased ebooks for next to nothing that were better than some of the hardbacks I have read recently. Ultimately it is up to the consumer to research their purchases (this is true in everything, not just literature) and be responsible for how they spend their money. Arbitrary lines in the sand will not diminish that fact.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by moonshot

I guess I do not have much support here being this is a site for the 'mobile' reader and some may be 'authors' of one sort or another.

Actually, you've been getting a huge amount of support here. Many ways of determining the quality of books have been mentioned.

It's hard to see what else you could be looking for in this thread. If all you wanted was to see how many people agreed with your assertion that books can exist without authors, then you've had your answer.

Originally Posted by moonshot

so the answer is no. I thought not.

In what way is Bilbo's thought experiment not a good answer? We've all been in bookshops countless times. We've all been aware or our own behaviour and that of the other shoppers. Have you or anyone else ever seen anyone walk straight in and grab a book totally at random and march off to the counter with it?

Surely the overwhelming evidence is that people check the books and even browse for some time before purchasing?

Graham

[Glorfindel]

Originally Posted by moonshot

so the answer is no. I thought not.

You asked for proof, he gave you proof, you reject the proof... what?

[Prestidigitweeze]

Another hilarious thing I just realized about this thread: At least one important modernist tried to make a similar point. I still remember reading Ezra Pound's Sadean *Guide to Kulchur* in college and watching his arguments drift further toward the insane. As far as I remember, Pound's reasoning went like this:

Being a doctor is a responsibility. If a doctor botches an operation badly enough, they aren't allowed to practice medicine again. If things go especially dreadfully, they're even put in jail.

Being a writer is a responsibility. If a writer produces work that is sufficiently bad, they shouldn't be allowed to write any more. If their writing is especially dreadful . . .

At that point, Pound not only thought there should be a litmus test for writers. He also believed that writers who failed the test should be removed from civilized society. "Civilization" is the actual word he used!

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by moonshot

I am new the e reader having just purchased one this year. And although the machine itself is fine to read from, I do find the Amazon and Kobo sites a bit of a mess, mixing e books by the 'professional author with the 'hobby' writer. Maybe the 'hobby' writers books should carry an Amazon/Kobo warning; these books have not been proof read, spelled checked or grammar and punctuation checked by an independent body; unless of course they have or they are free.

I'm starting to see some reading comprehension problems here. As has been point out *numerous* times, If you don't want to deal with the *mess* of Amazon and Kobo, there are many ways to find "Good" books. New York Times Best Seller List, Awards list in every genre you can imagine, publications such as The New York Times Book Review. It's not a lot of work. Most of your *one book a month* readers probably select books just that way.

There will never be a vetting process for authors. It's impossible to define and it's not possible to satisfy the tastes of the millions of readers in the world.