"Most e-books in The Netherlands are not paid for."

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Do you think that buying a paper book gives you the right to have a free ebook?

Is scanning and ocr'ing a book you own (and retain) for personal use, fair use?

Where's the line?

[Toxaris]

I wonder how they would rate my reader... There are some bought books on there, but at the time I was not allowed to buy them legally. I had to use a false address in the US to be able to buy them. The other books are all created by me from my own paper books. Those also are not available in the store, so I could not buy them if I wanted to. Recent books can be bought, but older books (not even that old) cannot be bought because they will not be converted due to the small market. In what category will those books fall?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Is scanning and ocr'ing a book you own (and retain) for personal use, fair use?

"Fair use" laws vary dramatically from country to country. From what I understand of their respective laws, in the US it perhaps is fair use, but in the UK, at the current time at least, it is assuredly not (just as buying a CD and then ripping it to your iPod is, at the current time, illegal in the UK).

Whatever fair use might say, downloading a pirated ebook sure as heck isn't .

[Mivo]

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Fair use" laws vary dramatically from country to country. From what I understand of their respective laws, in the US it perhaps is fair use, but in the UK, at the current time at least, it is assuredly not

In Germany, the situation is somewhat peculiar. There are two somewhat contradictory regulations: One grants the right to make backup copies of media that you own (without restrictions other than "for personal use only"), and one that forbids circumventing DRM. With a bit of mental acrobatics, one could justify that an ebook is a backup of a paper book, because the content is the same, and by downloading a DRM-disinfected version I wouldn't circumvent the DRM bits of the ebook (already comes stripped).

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Mivo

In Germany, the situation is somewhat peculiar. There are two somewhat contradictory regulations: One grants the right to make backup copies of media that you own (without restrictions other than "for personal use only"), and one that forbids circumventing DRM. With a bit of mental acrobatics, one could justify that an ebook is a backup of a paper book, because the content is the same, and by downloading a DRM-disinfected version I wouldn't circumvent the DRM bits of the ebook (already comes stripped).

Do you really think that one could regard an ebook as a "backup" of a paper book? It seems improbable to me. It would be like claiming that a paperback book is a "backup" of a hardback. It's a completely different medium.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Fair use" laws vary dramatically from country to country. From what I understand of their respective laws, in the US it perhaps is fair use, but in the UK, at the current time at least, it is assuredly not (just as buying a CD and then ripping it to your iPod is, at the current time, illegal in the UK).

Whatever fair use might say, downloading a pirated ebook sure as heck isn't .

But not for long, CD Ripping will be legal from April 2014 (Well, assuming it makes it through parliament)
Also, you will the be able to use Amazon's cloud player with your own MP3's legally for the first time (Yes at the moment cloud storage of copyright data is illegal without the express permission of the copyright holder as well)

Actually all format shifting will be legal as long as you do not break DRM - Well, TPM (technological protection measures, a superset of DRM) to be exact.
So it will be legal to format shift your book (While still being completely illegal for someone like 1 dollar scan to do it for you)

Full proposal from Hargreaves Review here if you are interested
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/response-2011-copyright-final.pdf

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Actually all format shifting will be legal as long as you do not break DRM - Well, TPM (technological protection measures, a superset of DRM) to be exact.
So it will be legal to format shift your book (While still being completely illegal for someone like 1 dollar scan to do it for you)

Do you think, though, that scanning a paper book constitutes "format shifting"? It seems unlikely to me. I would regard format shifting as moving from one digital medium to another - ripping a CD, or converting a book from Mobi to ePub format.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Do you think, though, that scanning a paper book constitutes "format shifting"? It seems unlikely to me. I would regard format shifting as moving from one digital medium to another - ripping a CD, or converting a book from Mobi to ePub format.

Well, as the exact wording in the proposal is :
<Rip>
People will be permitted to copy content they have bought onto any medium or device that they own, strictly for their own personal use (such as transferring their music collection from CD to iPod).
</Rip>
Then yes format shifting from paper to digital is covered

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

So it will be legal to format shift your book (While still being completely illegal for someone like 1 dollar scan to do it for you)

Not necessarily. When you send your book to 1 dollar scan, you could transfer ownership of the book to them. They make the copy onto CD legally, and then sell you back the book and send you the CD.

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Full proposal from Hargreaves Review here if you are interested
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/response-2011-copyright-final.pdf

Thanks, that was interesting. So the plan is to give an absolute right to personal copying of purchased media.

And if a TPM (DRM) prevents the exercise of that right, one can appeal to the Secretary of State.

I wonder what relief they would grant for tranfer of Amazon DRMed ebook to ePub device or vice-versa?

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Not necessarily. When you send your book to 1 dollar scan, you could transfer ownership of the book to them. They make the copy onto CD legally, and then sell you back the book and send you the CD.

Still no resale rights for digital content though, so although you could transfer the pBook rights to them and they transfer the shredded paper rights back to you they couldn't give you the digital copy as only the owner of the original content can make the back-up.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Thanks, that was interesting. So the plan is to give an absolute right to personal copying of purchased media.

Yes the wording is intentionally "Technology Neutral" so it won't be affected by changes in tech going forward. If you have the means to do so, and TPM doesn't stop you, you can transfer your VHS tape to your holosuite deck.

Originally Posted by pdurrant

And if a TPM (DRM) prevents the exercise of that right, one can appeal to the Secretary of State.
I wonder what relief they would grant for tranfer of Amazon DRMed ebook to ePub device or vice-versa?

In theory, in practice the fact that they are allowed to use TPM "as and when they wish to" and the Secretary of State will "consider the availability of suitable commercial offerings and impacts on business before taking action on TPM" means you are unlikely to get anywhere

[fjtorres]

Is print media a TPM?
To me it appears as if books are DRM-free, much like LPs and OTA TV; you can do pretty much anything to them for your own personal use. (A corollary of the Betamax decision as far as the US goes. And the Aerio victories in court, to date.)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Is print media a TPM?
To me it appears as if books are DRM-free, much like LPs and OTA TV; you can do pretty much anything to them for your own personal use. (A corollary of the Betamax decision as far as the US goes. And the Aerio victories in court, to date.)

Whatever the law does or doesn't say, the reality is that you can already do whatever the heck you want with your own stuff. Nobody's ever been prosecuted for doing so, or ever likely to be. It's only when people start being idiotic and giving copies to other people that problems arise.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

But MobileRead is the home of people who complain against that kind of reasoning, so there is an established tradition that we don't buy into that claim.

Every once in a while it does happen.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Whatever the law does or doesn't say, the reality is that you can already do whatever the heck you want with your own stuff. Nobody's ever been prosecuted for doing so, or ever likely to be. It's only when people start being idiotic and giving copies to other people that problems arise.

Yes, but there is also the third-party facilitator issue.
In the US the Cablevision case established that content distributors could perform fair use activities on behalf of subscribers before, during, and after distribution and the recent Aereo court victories are holding that independent third parties can perform fair use efforts on consumers' behalf as long as it is on a one to one basis. So the dollar scan operations would be legal even if they didn't destroy tge book so long as the actually scan each individual book.
Of course, the case is fresh and still has to be appealed to the supreme court but so far so good.

http://venturebeat.com/2014/02/11/su...case-april-22/

The US court system tends to be friendlier to consumer interests and property rights than Congress so fair use has a fair chance of prevailing.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Whatever the law does or doesn't say, the reality is that you can already do whatever the heck you want with your own stuff. Nobody's ever been prosecuted for doing so, or ever likely to be. It's only when people start being idiotic and giving copies to other people that problems arise.

True, but it's nice that most of the population won't be breaking the law all the time, makes such a mockery of things

Right, now to find out why if I have 1 dog it needs to wear a collar, but if I have a pack of hounds none of them need ID (And do you still get fined £5000 if one gets seperated ).
No, it's ok, it seems a tag needs the full name and address of the owner on it (Control of Dogs act 1992) so I'm still breaking the law on a daily basis.

Mostly rambling but my point is that there are a lot of illegal things that no one cares about and can we get rid of them.