palm OS on iliad?

[ericshliao]

Originally Posted by axel77

ericshliao, linux is not only used because its free. Its used because its an excellent OS scaling really well also down onto embedded devices. The license costs for example for VxWorks are when I remember correctly 50€ per CPU, this is a considerable amount, buts its not 3 times the cost. However as e.g. VxWoks might be usefull in small devices with hard realtime needs, its just so far off from offering the same amount of features a GNU/Linux system can do.

I never said that Linux is used "only" because it's free. You must have mis-read my words.

[e-enker]

The sites I need the iliad for are only text sites, nothing complicated. I cannot post the addresses because they have a password. I need them for my studies and they are updated often and thats why the iliad would be good for them . Its about reading, there are no animated features there, only text.

But I have to cut in here so that we dont talk at cross purposes..I might have had a wrong assumption. Because the underlying assumption all my questions are based on was that pda's have a better internet performance that the iliad, but after the recent replies Im not sure anymore. I dont own a pda.

Are you saying that a conventional pda is not a better internet device than the iliad is? If thats the case then I understand the last posts. If not then Im confused, lol.

So a modern pda is as limited for the internet as the iliad, is that what has been said here?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by e-enker

But I have to cut in here so that we dont talk at cross purposes..I might have had a wrong assumption. Because the underlying assumption all my questions are based on was that pda's have a better internet performance that the iliad, but after the recent replies Im not sure anymore. I dont own a pda.

How good a PDA is for internet access depends on the PDA. I was responding specifically to Internet access on a Palm OS PDA. As mentioned, available browsers leave a lot to be desired. I have several. The two best are Access Netfront (ripped from a Clie), and nWeb (which is no longer available through retail sale. Novarra only licenses to OEMs who bundle it with their device.) In practice, you are likely stuck with what comes with your Palm OS device. Things are better the the Windows Mobile world, and there are specialized devices like the Nokia Internet Tablets, based on Linux, that are designed to be handheld Internet devices.

Are you saying that a conventional pda is not a better internet device than the iliad is? If thats the case then I understand the last posts. If not then Im confused, lol.

It depends on what you mean by "PDA".

The Nokia devices are dandy for connectivity, but are not normally considered PDAs because they don't really have Personal Information Manager functionality, like Address Book, Calendar, etc., that were what PDAs were all about when introduced.

So a modern pda is as limited for the internet as the iliad, is that what has been said here?

No. Please reread the posts.

But bottom line, as I understand it, the iLiad can't do what you want now, so the question is what to use instead. Assume that getting the iLiad to do what you want, even when the source code for the firmware is available, will simply be far more trouble than it's worth.

Why don't you take the iLiad out of the equation entirely. Tell us what you need to do, in as much detail as possible, and ask what is currently out there that could do it.
______
Dennis

[e-enker]

I had assumed that many handhelds are better internet devices than the iliad, although I didnt know that palm is not so good for the internet. But my logic was that win mobile 5 for example runs on devices with 200 mhz only, and if these are good internet devices then I didnt understand why the iliad with 400mhz is so limited for the internet. I had thought that the reason is the os.

But I see that this is not the point because if the iliad will never be better for the internet then it is not for me.

Thanks for having been patient with my questions though.

Ill explain what problem I have:
I have a health condition and I cannot use normal computer screens at all. I get all kinds of symptoms that last for days only when I look at the screen for a couple of minutes. This obviously has to do with the light of the screen together with the fast refresh rates. I found out that I can read a monochrome lcd without backlight (from an electronic dictionary) just fine without problems.
I have to write my posts here without looking at the screen, and I have another person log me in and they print the replies for me so that I can read them.

The thing is I need the internet for studying. Some lessons are conducted online by use of a virtual classroom. So although its only text with some charts and tables Im almost sure the iliad doesnt supposrt it. The virtual classroom is a lot about reading, so I thought if the iliad did support it then it would solve all my problems. As far as I know, the virtual classroom can only be entered over the site where the lessons are scheduled, and this site is password protected, so I cannot post it for someone to try it out on the iliad. But it prolly wouldnt work anyway because you even have to set the browser on a laptop for it a little bit.

So what I need is an internet device that I can use to conveniently read without backlight.
The point is that the internet device should have superb contrast without backlight so that I can read the screen for one full hour without eye strain because the online lessons are one hour each. Maybe a handheld device or a tablet pc would work if they have good sunlightreadable screens.

If the contrast of the internet devices with sunlight viewable screen is not good enough to read it conveniently for longer periods of time then I might use such a device only for signing in and navigating the site, and in addition I might use an epaper device for the reading. IN this case I would have to transfer the contents of the online classroom to the epaper device once every couple of minutes, because the screen is updated by the instructor at about that rate. Maybe the new irex devices would be best for that because they have a direct print function.

But I know nothing about sunlightviewable screens and I dont know if they are usable for what I need.
This would be a question for the brighthand forum but the person that helps me with the internet has not registered for me yet, they have only read the main headings to me yet.

What I have thought about too is that it would be a solution for me if an epaper screen could be used as a secondary display for a laptop so that the image of the monitor is automatically displayed on the epaper device, but I suppose this doesnt work neither now nor in the near future. I also guess that monochrome lcd's as a computer screen are not available.
Maybe the new irex 1000 sw will support the online classrooms, but then again maybe not.

So you see I dont really have a clue about what to do.

[Antartica]

Originally Posted by e-enker

What I have thought about too is that it would be a solution for me if an epaper screen could be used as a secondary display for a laptop so that the image of the monitor is automatically displayed on the epaper device, but I suppose this doesnt work neither now nor in the near future.

You CAN use the iliad as a remote screen for a computer running UNIX (i.e. Linux). Specifically, when you launch a program from the command line in your computer running UNIX/Linux, you can specify that you want it displayed in another screen, and if you have the iliad connected through ethernet, it is able to display it.This way, the browser window is shown in the iliad instead of the screen on the computer. It has been tested with xepdmgr program to handle the screen refreshes. The catch to this is that you get lots of annoying refreshes and also there is the problem with input in the iliad (you have to use the on-screen keyboard). But this is doable NOW.

Another alternative is to use a vnc client in the iliad and connect to your PC with it. The only requirement for this is having a VNC server in your PC allowing other computers to share your screen. This one has the drawback of the refreshes (again, and probably more problematic that the previous case). Adam had a vnc client running on the iliad for the April fools in this thread https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=166027 but I don't know if his ported vnc was released or not.

So it's possible that an iliad fulfills your needs. Another problem you have to ponder is that you would need someone to setup you PC and the iliad to play nice together (installing the vnc server in your PC, configuring the iliad for the ethernet connection and installing dillo's connection scripts, installing the vnc client, installing scripts to start vnc connecting to your PC).

[nekokami]

Thanks for clarifying your needs -- that really helps. You might want to look into the OLPC project. They have a sunlight-readable screen. The technology is LCD, but the backlight is optional, and the screen contrast is supposed to be good. I've heard that there will be a program this year through Amazon to buy one and donate one. The computer runs Linux and I'm pretty sure a web browser will be standard-- I would guess some form of Firefox would run, but it would be worth looking into that.

If that won't work for you, an older laptop with a monochrome LCD screen might be worth looking into. Monochrome screens are sunlight-readable because they don't have the color filters printed on the front of the screen, blocking sunlight.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a good technology for your needs.

[axel77]

Originally Posted by nekokami

Thanks for clarifying your needs -- that really helps. You might want to look into the OLPC project. They have a sunlight-readable screen. The technology is LCD, but the backlight is optional, and the screen contrast is supposed to be good. I've heard that there will be a program this year through Amazon to buy one and donate one. The computer runs Linux and I'm pretty sure a web browser will be standard-- I would guess some form of Firefox would run, but it would be worth looking into that.

If that won't work for you, an older laptop with a monochrome LCD screen might be worth looking into. Monochrome screens are sunlight-readable because they don't have the color filters printed on the front of the screen, blocking sunlight.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a good technology for your needs.

The XO2 looks really like the device of my dreams! Unfortunally it currently doesn't look as bright if this device should ever come into reality...

About the XO displays, altough they arent backlighted I don't know if they are refreshing. e-enker might experience the same disorders as with traditional screens. Another real difference of eInks is beside the backlightlessness that the screen is static, it doesnt refresh. It even needs 0.8 seconds to change, as we all know :-)

[nekokami]

It's real and shipping, but not available to individual customers except during Give 1 Get 1 promotions. They ran a promotion like this last year during the winter holiday season, and it would not surprise me if they do that again this year.

[axel77]

Originally Posted by nekokami

It's real and shipping, but not available to individual customers except during Give 1 Get 1 promotions. They ran a promotion like this last year during the winter holiday season, and it would not surprise me if they do that again this year.

I thought the G1G1 thing was only on the XO1, not the XO2. I buy a XO2 as G1G1 straight away. Altough I don't know how comfortable it might be to write on this onscreen keyboard, I imagine it a bit cumbersome.... but this would be something one really has to try.

[nekokami]

Sorry, wasn't paying enough attention. You're right, of course. The XO2 isn't "real" yet.

[rachaelandrews]

Hi there e-enker

I have read this with interest and wanted to throw in an idea that may prove useful to you. Let me run this by you in case it is.

Your issue, as you explain so well, is with the type of screen and its effects on your condition. That sounds like a real nasty thing to have to deal with so much sympathy here from me. I know what it's like to have issues that effect your computer use, and it can often suck !
My issue is that I am virtually blind. So obviously, I can't use a computer screen in the traditional way either - I just don't have enough sight to see it and enlarging the fonts to the size I need them can make things pretty chaotic on the screen. I like my iliad because I can get really really large fonts on it. I don't get many words to the page but it suits me !
My fiance has no sight at all however. Both of us are big computer users. We both use screen reader programs that read the content of everything on the screen to us via an electronic voice. So hence, we don't need to "see" the screen. We can do virtually everything a sighted person can do, and we navigate the computer via the keyboard as opposed to the mouse. My fiance uses a program called JAWS for windows (he has a windows computer still whereas I don't) and we both use VoiceOver on our macs (which is built into the operating system. You have to buy JAWS seperately and install it.) There are others around, these are just what we use and have knowledge of.
My fiance doesn't even have a screen for his desktop computer (obviously we do for our laptops because they come built in but with mac you can just turn the screen off completely via a screen curtain function. I imagine you could get the same result on a windows machine by turning the screen brightness and contrst right down to emit virtually no light). The screen reader software doesn't need one to work as it intercepts the video signals at operating system level.
This could work for you too - if you couldn't find a physical screen that would suit you, you could just not have one if you used a screen reader. What do you think ? It's an alternative idea at least.

BTW - you can get screen readers for pdas, and mobile phones too. If you're looking for a truly portable solution. Mobilespeak Pocket is a good one for pdas.

[e-enker]

Thanks for the great suggestions, all of them are useful.
Ive thought about it and there are some questions that I have still.


When the iliad is used as an external screen for a computer then the screen of the iliad refreshes at a rate of once every 0.8 seconds and that would mean that the screen visibly flashes at a high rate?
Is there a way to cut out the automatic refreshing entirely and make it a manual refresh function, like tapping on the screen or so? I suppose when the iliad constantly refreshes at a high rate then its very inconvenient to read.
Would ubuntu work as the unix system to use the iliad as an external screen for a computer?

Thanks nekokami for all the well wishes for me to find the right technology.
Did you mean that the older laptops with monochrome screens can be used as internet devices or did you mean that I could use them as a screen for a modern pc? Either way would be pretty good. I didnt even know there once were laptops with monochrome screens.

The olpc project sounds almost better. The way I understood it there is the xo1 and xo2 but the xo2 has not been produced yet.
I dont know if you meant that only the xo2 has internet but if the xo1 doesnt have internet then maybe I can use the device as a secondary screen for a pc?
Why do they only make it available through the give one get one program and what would I have to give to get one?

Hi rachaelandrews, I think the screen reader software is the first thing I will try, because the most annoying thing about my computer problem is that I always have to beg another person to print stuff out and prepare the reply form for me to write on the forum.. I cannot even do internet researches about useful devices so even my possibilities to gain info are most severely limited.
I suppose you can also do general searches on the net with the screen reader or copy and paste things to print them?
If I can do that all by myself with a screen reader program then that would be quite a substantial progress for me if I dont need another person anymore to help me with it.
Im happy you mentioned it to me because although I had already wondered how blind people use the computer, I would have never asked about it here.
Is this screen reader software only available through special suppliers or do normal computer stores have it?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Did you mean that the older laptops with monochrome screens can be used as internet devices or did you mean that I could use them as a screen for a modern pc? Either way would be pretty good. I didnt even know there once were laptops with monochrome screens.

The olpc project sounds almost better. The way I understood it there is the xo1 and xo2 but the xo2 has not been produced yet.
I dont know if you meant that only the xo2 has internet but if the xo1 doesnt have internet then maybe I can use the device as a secondary screen for a pc?
Why do they only make it available through the give one get one program and what would I have to give to get one?

There are internet-capable laptops that used a monochrome LCD screen, which does not need backlighting. They are older and would run older software. Less modern hardware would be available, too. For example, I think USB was developed after most or all screens had gone to color.

The XO1 does have internet capabilities. It was developed for use in third-world countries, and is not available commercially, but last year around the holidays it was possible to buy one if you were willing to contribute to purchasing one for the intended users, i.e. children in developing countries who otherwise would not have access to a computer (or possibly, textbooks).

[axel77]

nekokami, I think his problems are with the flimmering, not with the blacklight. A non-blacklighted LCD technology is still flimmering. eInk is not. So I cannot know what e-enker can really look at, and what not, but it might as well be that non-backlighted LCDs are not a solution.

[rachaelandrews]

Originally Posted by e-enker

Hi rachaelandrews, I think the screen reader software is the first thing I will try, because the most annoying thing about my computer problem is that I always have to beg another person to print stuff out and prepare the reply form for me to write on the forum.. I cannot even do internet researches about useful devices so even my possibilities to gain info are most severely limited.
I suppose you can also do general searches on the net with the screen reader or copy and paste things to print them?
If I can do that all by myself with a screen reader program then that would be quite a substantial progress for me if I dont need another person anymore to help me with it.
Im happy you mentioned it to me because although I had already wondered how blind people use the computer, I would have never asked about it here.
Is this screen reader software only available through special suppliers or do normal computer stores have it?

You can do everything with a screen reader that you can do without one - with some possible exceptions like, image editing I'd say. Of course that replies on visual perception.
I don't know if the usual computer stores have screen readers - I suspect not. It's a kind of specialist thing really.
There is a free one if you run Windows - called Thunder. http://www.screenreader.net/ is the website for it. I've used it and it is ok, not very advanced but the bonus is it's free !
On the other end of the scale we have JAWS, which is what nearly all of the visually impaired windows users I know use. http://www.freedomscientific.com/pro...oduct-page.asp
It is horribly expensive though - $895 at the last count for the standard version. It is very good though in my experience. It's what my fiance has been using since it came out several years ago and he swears by it, although he does use a mac too now.
If you're on a mac you're in luck - there's one built in to the OS if you have Tiger or Leopard. It's called VoiceOver.

In theory once you get these babies installed and have a tutorial to refer to (you can print one out for Thunder as I recall and JAWS has large print, audio, and braille tutorials included with it if you buy the physical discs - but in any case there's bound to a manual you can print out on the website) you'd be good to go. You basically learn keyboard combinations to navigate everything - system, programs, web browser - and away you go. The only issue you may have is that some websites are not compatible with screen readers as they either rely on mouse gestures (which can be hard to use with a screen reader if you're not sure where the mouse pointer actually is on the screen) or have links that are image based and have no underlying text definition. If I recall correctly, there's a lawsuit going on with Target in the US about their website not being accessible via screenreaders. Accessibility is very rightly becoming an important issue these days. A screen reader can only interpret text, not a picture.
But if you sites you need for your studies are text only as you said earlier in the thread you should be all set, hopefully. And if those sites didn't work, well - you could do what my fiance did and take the college / school / whatever it is to task and make them change it so it is. In the UK we have the Disability Discrimination Act, which although technically may or may not apply to websites (it's one of those things people like to calla "grey area") often invoking it can get good results.
Maybe Thunder would be a good place to start to see how it worked for you - because if it didn't you wouldn't have lost money.

Anyway, I hope some of this might help. Good luck !


Rachael