Adobe Digital Editions 3.0 released - Page 11

chrisridd · 01-26-2014, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Mostly, I see it hurting the smaller ePub stores and helping Amazon if resellers were forced to adopt the more strict DRM scheme "at gunpoint." And if it's not at gunpoint, I can't see them upgrading at all.

The thing is, the guns are aimed at the ePub stores' feet. If the trigger is pulled a good number of devices will become unusable (I wonder what sort of numbers?), and there will be a lot of unhappy customers.

DiapDealer · 01-26-2014, 10:00 AM

What I can't help thinking about, though, is that Adobe's getting their $0.22 whether resellers/lenders use the old OR the new. I wouldn't think they'd be willing to lose that $0.22 by pissing users off enough to jump in bed with Amazon, unless their hand was being forced by the publishers to do so. But then what leverage do the publishers have on Adobe to force their hand in that way? Do they have someone else that can provide their DRM?

Could it be that the "hardened DRM" is simply being made available to those who request it? And that it would be between resellers/lenders and the individual publishers as to whether it will be "required" to sell their particular titles?

pdurrant · 01-26-2014, 10:11 AM

It may not be generally known that Amazon's DRM hasn't remained static over the past five years.

When the Kindle first came out, their DRM was based on a per-device key generated from the Kindle's serial number. With Kindle for Mac/PC there was a different encryption scheme, that changed several times.

Amazon's DRM has always been a per-device scheme, in that every device had its own encryption key. Most Amazon DRM is now also a per-book encryption key, where every book on a device has it's own key.

In addition, the key has gone from about 40bits to about 60 bits.

And through all that various developers have tweaked the tools originally from The Dark Reverser to keep them working.

I just hope that i<love>cabbages or their heirs are willing to play the same game with Adobe DRM.

GeoffR · 01-26-2014, 10:15 AM

Kobo has its own DRM scheme for its own kepub format books, just as Amazon have their own scheme for their own format books.

So if there is any problem removing Adobe DRM, it is still possible to buy from Kobo, download the book using a Kobo device or app, remove the Kobo DRM, and convert to plain epub. Not much different to buyng from Amazon, downloading with Kindle4PC, removing DRM, and converting to epub.

alanHd · 01-26-2014, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

It may not be generally known that Amazon's DRM hasn't remained static over the past five years.

When the Kindle first came out, their DRM was based on a per-device key generated from the Kindle's serial number. With Kindle for Mac/PC there was a different encryption scheme, that changed several times.

Amazon's DRM has always been a per-device scheme, in that every device had its own encryption key. Most Amazon DRM is now also a per-book encryption key, where every book on a device has it's own key.

In addition, the key has gone from about 40bits to about 60 bits.

And through all that various developers have tweaked the tools originally from The Dark Reverser to keep them working.

I just hope that i<love>cabbages or their heirs are willing to play the same game with Adobe DRM.

I Don't think the big issue is that they make the DRM stronger, its the fact that it may make books unreadable on older devices or even current devices without a Firmware upgrade. If Amazon ever put me in a position where I had to buy a newer reader just to read new books I would leave the eco system.

I doubt the new Drm will be unbreakable anyway, look what they said about BlueRay.

pdurrant · 01-26-2014, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanHd

I doubt the new Drm will be unbreakable anyway, look what they said about BlueRay.

Well, yes.

Purple Lady · 01-26-2014, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshayy

ultimately if kobo decides to use new drm for new books with new acs server, they must update their customers kobo readers, so everything will work fine!
also there is backward compatibility. old books can be read too on new device, reader, updated firmware.

Even if Kobo updated their devices that wouldn't help me or a lot of other people here. I don't have a Kobo reader but I still prefer to buy from Kobo.

Katsunami · 01-26-2014, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

Even if Kobo updated their devices that wouldn't help me or a lot of other people here. I don't have a Kobo reader but I still prefer to buy from Kobo.

Sadly, that is precisely what DRM is telling you:

"We make it work with software X and readers of type Y. If you want to use anything else, you can *** it."

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanHd

If Amazon ever put me in a position where I had to buy a newer reader just to read new books I would leave the eco system.

Indeed, and I think that's what many EPUB buyers will also do.

Purple Lady · 01-26-2014, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Sadly, that is precisely what DRM is telling you:

"We make it work with software X and readers of type Y. If you want to use anything else, you can *** it."

I've never understood that. You'd think they want to sell books.

fjtorres · 01-26-2014, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Could even be a bit of a "last hurrah" powerplay between Adobe and the Big 5 against Amazon. If they get ePub ebooks/devices/vendors/libraries all locked down with "Hardened DRM," how much leverage would the publishers then have to force Amazon's hand (by withholding titles) concerning their own (now clearly insufficient) proprietary DRM?

Amazon would love to see them try it.
2014 is not 2010 and Amazon has spent the past four years preparing for such an attempt.

First of all, the BPHs can't do it individually, because individually they make up maybe 4-5% of Amazon's book sales (except the Randy Penguin) and all five make up maybe a third. Of course, if the five gang up to do *anything* against Amazon... Well, all it takes is one press conference to denounce a second conspiracy.
Second, while all of Amazon's BPH book sales make up maybe 5% of their total business, Amazon constitutes anywhere from 30-50% of the BPHs' business. And since Amazon doesn't do returns, they may easily make 60% of the BPHs' net.

So, no.
Amazon would feel a boycott by the Randy Penguin, though not much, and would shrug off a boycott by the other four. Thanks to ebooks and indies, Amazon can easily weather a BPH boycott, just as B&N weathered their war with S&S.

Kumabjorn · 01-26-2014, 11:33 AM

A few days ago a printed book (gasp) arrived by mail. All the way from Japan. Okubo Nobuko is a well recognized authority on the kimono, it's fabrics, color combinations, styles of tying an obi, things like that. Included in the book was a DVD in which she does different variations and points out what you need to think about when you dress yourself (tying an obi is no easy venture). I put it in my laptop and started viewing. Well, about halfway through the DVD stops, the screen goes blank. Frustrated I reload, just to have the same experience. Well, no biggie, the drive is a few years old, I'll just copy it to the hard drive and watch from there, besides I want to make a video conversion so I can have it on my Android tablet, that way I can watch the pointers when I dress in a certain style. I start copying. Well as you all can imagine, that didn't work either.
I send an e-mail and ask them what's going on. Turns out you need an old fashioned DVD player hooked up to a TV to watch, I explain that it would be like to send a fax instead of an e-mail, it's obsolete, their answer is that they send thousands of faxes every day. The DVD was encoded with a DRM that won't let it pay on a DVD drive in a computer in order to avoid piracy. Needless to say I still haven't seen the second part of the DVD, and I will never again buy anything from that publisher. Not that it will make a dent in their bottom line.
ADE 3.0 sounds very similar.

robko · 01-26-2014, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshayy

It breaks only if you open new drm books in old reader.

BUT You would end up with new DRM books only if you have the ability the read such a book. Which means you can always read it on ADE 3.0 or Android or iOS apps and never be left high and dry.

I respectfully have to disagree that this wouldn't leave me high and dry. This assumes that I didn't buy the book to read on my E-INK reader and don't mind reading it on my laptop or phone (or a tablet of some version). That is a VERY mistaken assumption. I realize you are likely not in a position to change Adobes mind, but they are seriously heading in a very wrong direction. I have never pirated a book (and I have no interest in doing so) and I do pay for a fair number of new books each year (I'm not just reading free books), but this type of thing could sure push me that direction.

DiapDealer · 01-26-2014, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

So, no.
Amazon would feel a boycott by the Randy Penguin, though not much, and would shrug off a boycott by the other four. Thanks to ebooks and indies, Amazon can easily weather a BPH boycott, just as B&N weathered their war with S&S.

Well, I did indicate I didn't think such a thing would be very successful. But that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure they wouldn't be stupid enough to try.

fjtorres · 01-26-2014, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Well, I did indicate I didn't think such a thing would be very successful. But that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure they wouldn't be stupid enough to try.

Considering the CONTROL-ish way they ran the last conspiracy, they just might get smart enough to try it again.

fjtorres · 01-26-2014, 01:07 PM

Me, I think Adobe is doing the new DRM in response to MacMillan's TOR experiment.
If going DRM-free made no difference in piracy rates, why encrypt at all?
So Adobe is trying to convince the BPHs that instead of ditching DRM, they need to double down with tougher DRM.
Problem is, a tougher Adept DRM will make little market impact in most developed markets like the US because generic ADEPT ebooks make such a small portion of the ebook market. Amazon, Apple, and Nook control 86-90% of the market. More, epub pirates, faced with an "unbreakable" Adept DRM, can always buy from B&N and strip that DRM instead.
Which pretty much guarantees that publishers will see no change in piracy rates.

Sooner or later they're bound to realize that encryption DRM, whether interoperable or not, does nothing for them. Even then, I don't expect publishers to give up on the placebo of DRM, merely to switch to watermark DRM.

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01-26-2014, 10:00 AM	#152
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,645 Karma: 204624552 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	What I can't help thinking about, though, is that Adobe's getting their $0.22 whether resellers/lenders use the old OR the new. I wouldn't think they'd be willing to lose that $0.22 by pissing users off enough to jump in bed with Amazon, unless their hand was being forced by the publishers to do so. But then what leverage do the publishers have on Adobe to force their hand in that way? Do they have someone else that can provide their DRM? Could it be that the "hardened DRM" is simply being made available to those who request it? And that it would be between resellers/lenders and the individual publishers as to whether it will be "required" to sell their particular titles?

01-26-2014, 10:11 AM	#153
pdurrant The Grand Mouse 高貴的老鼠 Posts: 74,051 Karma: 315160596 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Norfolk, England Device: Kindle Oasis	It may not be generally known that Amazon's DRM hasn't remained static over the past five years. When the Kindle first came out, their DRM was based on a per-device key generated from the Kindle's serial number. With Kindle for Mac/PC there was a different encryption scheme, that changed several times. Amazon's DRM has always been a per-device scheme, in that every device had its own encryption key. Most Amazon DRM is now also a per-book encryption key, where every book on a device has it's own key. In addition, the key has gone from about 40bits to about 60 bits. And through all that various developers have tweaked the tools originally from The Dark Reverser to keep them working. I just hope that i<love>cabbages or their heirs are willing to play the same game with Adobe DRM.

01-26-2014, 10:15 AM	#154
GeoffR Wizard Posts: 3,821 Karma: 19162882 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Te Riu-a-Māui Device: Kobo Glo	Kobo has its own DRM scheme for its own kepub format books, just as Amazon have their own scheme for their own format books. So if there is any problem removing Adobe DRM, it is still possible to buy from Kobo, download the book using a Kobo device or app, remove the Kobo DRM, and convert to plain epub. Not much different to buyng from Amazon, downloading with Kindle4PC, removing DRM, and converting to epub.

01-26-2014, 11:33 AM	#161
Kumabjorn Basculocolpic Posts: 4,356 Karma: 20181319 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Sweden Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Kindle 4SO, Kindle for Android, Sony PRS-350 and PRS-T1	A few days ago a printed book (gasp) arrived by mail. All the way from Japan. Okubo Nobuko is a well recognized authority on the kimono, it's fabrics, color combinations, styles of tying an obi, things like that. Included in the book was a DVD in which she does different variations and points out what you need to think about when you dress yourself (tying an obi is no easy venture). I put it in my laptop and started viewing. Well, about halfway through the DVD stops, the screen goes blank. Frustrated I reload, just to have the same experience. Well, no biggie, the drive is a few years old, I'll just copy it to the hard drive and watch from there, besides I want to make a video conversion so I can have it on my Android tablet, that way I can watch the pointers when I dress in a certain style. I start copying. Well as you all can imagine, that didn't work either. I send an e-mail and ask them what's going on. Turns out you need an old fashioned DVD player hooked up to a TV to watch, I explain that it would be like to send a fax instead of an e-mail, it's obsolete, their answer is that they send thousands of faxes every day. The DVD was encoded with a DRM that won't let it pay on a DVD drive in a computer in order to avoid piracy. Needless to say I still haven't seen the second part of the DVD, and I will never again buy anything from that publisher. Not that it will make a dent in their bottom line. ADE 3.0 sounds very similar.

01-26-2014, 01:07 PM	#165
fjtorres Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,732 Karma: 128354696 Join Date: May 2009 Location: 26 kly from Sgr A* Device: T100TA,PW2,PRS-T1,KT,FireHD 8.9,K2, PB360,BeBook One,Axim51v,TC1000	Me, I think Adobe is doing the new DRM in response to MacMillan's TOR experiment. If going DRM-free made no difference in piracy rates, why encrypt at all? So Adobe is trying to convince the BPHs that instead of ditching DRM, they need to double down with tougher DRM. Problem is, a tougher Adept DRM will make little market impact in most developed markets like the US because generic ADEPT ebooks make such a small portion of the ebook market. Amazon, Apple, and Nook control 86-90% of the market. More, epub pirates, faced with an "unbreakable" Adept DRM, can always buy from B&N and strip that DRM instead. Which pretty much guarantees that publishers will see no change in piracy rates. Sooner or later they're bound to realize that encryption DRM, whether interoperable or not, does nothing for them. Even then, I don't expect publishers to give up on the placebo of DRM, merely to switch to watermark DRM.