interesting take on DRM

[Lemurion]

When in doubt, look at Amazon.

There is no technical reason why a Kindle cannot read a secure mobipocket title; the only thing stopping it is Amazon's fiat which prevents the DRM servers from authorizing a Kindle PID. This is not about preventing piracy, this is all about lock-in and control.

Kindle owners are only to buy secure books from the Kindle store.

That's DRM in action. That's what it's really designed for and that's how it is used. Opening the Mobipocket DRM servers to Kindle PIDs would have precisely zero effect on piracy. All it would do is loosen Amazon's leash on Kindle owners.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

When in doubt, look at Amazon.

There is no technical reason why a Kindle cannot read a secure mobipocket title; the only thing stopping it is Amazon's fiat which prevents the DRM servers from authorizing a Kindle PID. This is not about preventing piracy, this is all about lock-in and control.

Kindle owners are only to buy secure books from the Kindle store.

That's DRM in action. That's what it's really designed for and that's how it is used. Opening the Mobipocket DRM servers to Kindle PIDs would have precisely zero effect on piracy. All it would do is loosen Amazon's leash on Kindle owners.

I agree that Amazon is using it in a way you described but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is the purpose of DRM. I think Amazon is misusing it for their own purposes. DRM has been around for years before Amazon came on the scene with there current practice.

Dale

[bill_mchale]

Yes, Amazon did not invent DRM with the Kindle, but I think the history of media providers over the past 30 years has shown time and again that they want to control how the public accesses the media they provide.

Consider the following:

1. The TV networks fought home video recorders for years; complaining that recording a television show to watch later was piracy.

2. The mini-disc was effectively crippled as a media type in the American Market because the media half of Sony was afraid that the technology would be used for the same purpose that tape cassettes were (how this would have cost them any more money is beyond me).

3. Region Coding on DVD's. Essentially allows the media companies to decide who gets to watch their content. After all, what if someone wants to watch a movie that isn't available in this country that is not available? Or worse, they might get it for less over seas.

4. Try using your iTunes with a digital media player besides the iPod?

5. The media industry lobbied long and hard to make breaking DRM a crime in and of itself, even if you did not do anything with the DRM'd media but activities that constituted fair use. Pirating Digital Media is already a crime; what need was there to make DRM cracking a crime other than making sure they stay in control?

--
Bill

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

When first introduced they cost more. There is now no difference in price between DRM tracks and non-DRM tracks at the iTunes Music Store.

Paul

Interesting to know. I stand corrected then.

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by bill_mchale

Well, there are a couple of problems with your analogies. The speed limit analogy, as I pointed out earlier, does not actually consist on placing a limit on your rights since you have no legal right to drive; it is a priviledge granted by the state. The state therefore reserves the right to regulate it any way it sees fit.

When you put locks on your door, you are inconveniencing yourself, but are not in fact restricting the rights of anyone but yourself and your family.

As for what the purpose of DRM; its simple, there are two possible solutions. The first solution is that it provides a false sense of security to the distributors of digital media. The second possible solution is that it is a way for the Media industry in question to limit fair use in such a way as to make them more money. Consider what does not happen when DRM is in play; no one is likely to loan a book because it means loaning the reader the book is on as well. How many more copies of Harry Potter could have been sold if everyone who read it had to buy their own copy? Likewise, it is also being used to tie people into devices; Kindle and Sony PRS owners will have to continue buying Kindles and PRS's if they want to continue to have access to their DRM'd books.

--
Bill

Actually I think it's even more vicious than that, which was only the first part of the idea.

DRM have basically been sold to technically clueless managers as a way to reach a "pay per use" system - a permanent customer milking machine is their wet dream, you know?

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I agree that Amazon is using it in a way you described but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is the purpose of DRM. I think Amazon is misusing it for their own purposes. DRM has been around for years before Amazon came on the scene with there current practice.

Dale

Sorry I don't think I was as clear as I could have been; I was building on a previous post where I defined DRM as essentially a means of control rather than piracy prevention and I have seen nothing to contradict that impression.

The purpose of DRM is to keep control of digital media in the hands of the rights-holder so as to maximize their revenue stream.

Amazon's current stance with the Kindle is simply the clearest example of DRM that's readily available to use to illustrate DRM as control mechanism rather than "piracy prevention."

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by Sallytrafic

As a complete newbie and struggling to come to terms with everything and this includes Sony that has decided not to be compatible with Apple (so I'm using Calibre), DRM just adds another layer of complexity.

I have no idea how to buy a book from Sony, if I did I have no idea if it would work on my reader as I'm not using library. Will DRM get in the way?

In a word, yes. Back when I lived in Japan I bought myself a librie, which I gave my wife when we moved out. The idea was that this way she could still read in Japanese - supposedly a book was only a download away from the Japanese Sony store away. Unfortunately their drm tie the ebook you've bought to both the computer and the librie through a windows only software that you have to use to download your purchase. And you could renew either a couple of times only.
When we tried it out, we used her old computer under windows, but we ditched it before leaving Japan for a laptop not running windows.

Where were we now? Both our computers are under linux so we needed to use a virtual machine to run the software, plus there was a glitch in the librie for which we had to send it back and use the warranty. This actually counted as having a new reader. For various reasons (among which very unclear instructions for somebody not very computer savy such as my wife, I couldn't read the Japanese involved) it became necessary to wipe and renew the virtual machines a couple of times.

WHAMMMO!!!

"You've exceeded your allowed number of renewal of the registering process. Please contact the technical team at..."

Fortunately, we have an IP phone (you can't do it through mail) and Japanese service is very good as a rule: it only took a couple days waiting to complete the process...

So let's see:
You're not free to use whatever works to access the store (here linux instead of windows) for completely artificial reasons. You need to phone home almost as soon as the renew any part of your gear.

Oh, I almost forgot. In a couple of months, the Japanese sony store for the librie is going to close down. That means that if six months from now we encounter a similar problem simply to upload already bought books from the computer to the reader, tough luck: we won't be able to renew the registering process because there'll be nobody to do so with anymore.

[Amalthia]

I think ultimately I'll never like DRM because I feel like it's punishing me. I'm trying to host fan fics converted to ebook format and I have to do the work TWICE! because my archive has Kindle and Sony PRS users and it doesn't seem fair to have LRF but not MOBI...They really need to get one standard format that's required on all devices (and I don't mean TXT)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

It's things like DVD region coding.

With a DVD (not blu-ray), I can use that DVD on any DVD player in the USA. I cannot take a Mobipocket file with DRM and use it on any Gen3 or Computer I want if the PID is not in the file. This is a lot more restrictive.

The thing is, the people who pirate eBooks can already remove some of the DRM. So the only ones DRM can hurt are the people trying to be legal. Let's say the shop you bought your eBooks from has closed down, you cannot redownload if you need to update due to a new computer or new PID.

[bbusybookworm]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

With a DVD (not blu-ray), I can use that DVD on any DVD player in the USA.

Nitpick - Any DVD player in the USA

The region system affects those of us outside the US most usually as most movie's and TV shows are released in the US first and months later in the rest of the word and sometimes never.

And I'm in Region 2. those in Region 3 & 4 have it worse off as it takes even longer and fewer make it there.

It cuts the other way for people who like foreign films, as most of those don't get released for R1 or R2, so you need to buy a region free player which in many places is not available or requires a hack.

And DVD drives on computers? they are region coded and allow a maximum of 3-4 changes before you are stuck on whichever region disc you last watched. While there are workarounds, you should not have to do that to play a disc you purchased.

With Mobi, while you are limited to PID's at least there is no limit to how many times you change the PID in the database.

[JSWolf]

Amazon locks you into the Kindle with their DRM. Sony does not lock you into theit reader with their DRM. With Sony, you can read DRMed books via eBook Library in Windows. Amazon does not allow Kindle eBooks to be read with anything other then a Kindle. They do not have any sort of computer program that reads Kindle eBooks. So if you were to lose your Kindle somehow or it broke, you'd ether have to purchase a new Kindle or do without your eBooks. If the Kindle breaks and Amazon says it's something uou did or the warranty is over, there is no repair. It's buy a new one or do without.

I don't know of any of the other reader companies that do not have a repair option.

[junkml]

Originally Posted by bbusybookworm

Nitpick - Any DVD player in the USA

The region system affects those of us outside the US most usually as most movie's and TV shows are released in the US first and months later in the rest of the word and sometimes never.

And I'm in Region 2. those in Region 3 & 4 have it worse off as it takes even longer and fewer make it there.

It cuts the other way for people who like foreign films, as most of those don't get released for R1 or R2, so you need to buy a region free player which in many places is not available or requires a hack.

And DVD drives on computers? they are region coded and allow a maximum of 3-4 changes before you are stuck on whichever region disc you last watched. While there are workarounds, you should not have to do that to play a disc you purchased.

With Mobi, while you are limited to PID's at least there is no limit to how many times you change the PID in the database.

Additionally, there are some of us that have enjoyed some shows/movies from the UK, and those WON'T play on every dvd player in the USA. You have to make sure you have a region-free dvd player.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by bbusybookworm

Nitpick - Any DVD player in the USA

The region system affects those of us outside the US most usually as most movie's and TV shows are released in the US first and months later in the rest of the word and sometimes never.

And I'm in Region 2. those in Region 3 & 4 have it worse off as it takes even longer and fewer make it there.

It cuts the other way for people who like foreign films, as most of those don't get released for R1 or R2, so you need to buy a region free player which in many places is not available or requires a hack.

And DVD drives on computers? they are region coded and allow a maximum of 3-4 changes before you are stuck on whichever region disc you last watched. While there are workarounds, you should not have to do that to play a disc you purchased.

With Mobi, while you are limited to PID's at least there is no limit to how many times you change the PID in the database.

There was one shop that sold Mobipocket format at a discount and they went under. Any books purchased there are now locked into whatever PID(s) the files have.

As for DVD players, there are some that will allow unlocking the region code. I have a Phillips and before that another Phillips. They both allow me to have it set to region 0 so it plays all regions. So I can play region 2. The older player did output PAL format with PAL DVDs and NTSC with NTSC DVDs. Don't know about the newer one as it upscales to 1080i and doesn't matter the original format. And you can get DVD players in the UK that will play NTSC DVDs.

I know there is software available that will allow you to play DVDs on your computer regardless of the region.

But, out of the box and for the average person, DRM is an issue. DRM locks you in a specific place. Lets say you have a Gen3 and the screen breaks and you decide not to get one. As an average person, your choices are to get another Gen3, a V3, or an iLiad Book Reader if you want to keep your content. Otherwise, you buy something else like a Sony 505 or 700 and lose what you have and start over. DRM is supposed to be preventing pircay. But all it does is prevent the average user from sometime having access to legall purchased content.

[bbusybookworm]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

As for DVD players, there are some that will allow unlocking the region code. ...... And you can get DVD players in the UK that will play NTSC DVDs.

I know and agree, butas you said out of the box, most DVD players cannot play other region DVD's. If you asked a normal users chances are they would not know about the Region system. I know quiet a few people who ran into this problem when they moved, and had to g buy another player so they could see all the movies in their collection.

I know there is software available that will allow you to play DVDs on your computer regardless of the region.

I'm aware and do run it when I need to, but again how many people off the street would be aware. This especially hit laptop users hard, as they may often buy and play DVD's when travelling and realise their Drives are stuck later.

But, out of the box and for the average person, DRM is an issue. DRM locks you in a specific place. Lets say you have a Gen3 and the screen breaks and you decide not to get one. As an average person, your choices are to get another Gen3, a V3, or an iLiad Book Reader if you want to keep your content. Otherwise, you buy something else like a Sony 505 or 700 and lose what you have and start over. DRM is supposed to be preventing pircay. But all it does is prevent the average user from sometime having access to legall purchased content.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this one bit, and I personally strip and store my book in a DRM free version. I was more disagreeing with the assertion that DVD's have a more open system.

For the number of people it affects, the DVD region system is probably more annoying. And while they claim piracy, it is clearly evident that it has more to do with lining their own pockets.

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Amazon locks you into the Kindle with their DRM. Sony does not lock you into theit reader with their DRM. With Sony, you can read DRMed books via eBook Library in Windows. Amazon does not allow Kindle eBooks to be read with anything other then a Kindle. They do not have any sort of computer program that reads Kindle eBooks. So if you were to lose your Kindle somehow or it broke, you'd ether have to purchase a new Kindle or do without your eBooks. If the Kindle breaks and Amazon says it's something uou did or the warranty is over, there is no repair. It's buy a new one or do without.

I don't know of any of the other reader companies that do not have a repair option.

According to this thread there is a repair program now. Before they just replaced them for free even if you dropped it. I suppose technically that's a lack of a repair program. I'm not surprised if that's gotten to be a bit too expensive because now they're charging $180 if you break the screen.